|
|
 | | From: | Dan Weiss | | Subject: | New Windsurfing Insurance Topic (continuation) | | Date: | Thu, 20 Jan 2005 18:59:09 -0500 |
|
|
 | Glenn:
I'm far from an expert on insurance, but I deal with it in some respects as
I help my clients navigate risk. Here's a thumbnail of some issues and
observations:
Having insurance sufficient to satisfy a claim against you for negligent
behavior comes in several forms depending on the venue. You might get this
coverage in a basic homeowners policy, but probably not to such a degree or
with to many restrictions as to make a separate personal liability policy
somewhat attractive. A personal (a.k.a. "general liability") policy covers
you for negligence that causes injury to another in cases where your home
owners policy simply do not cover. That's the same reason why we purchase
automobile insurance that almost always includes separate liability coverage
for damages you cause. Even though your homeowners might cover certain
scenarios involving negligence, it doesn't cover your actions when driving
your car. Likewise, a personal liability policy aims to cover those
occurrences that otherwise go uncovered by other types of insurance, whether
because the situation is excluded by the primary policy, or whether the
damages exceeds the maximum coverage. Sometimes you can "stack" these
policies together, such as if you are found personally responsible for a car
wreck that damages another, your car insurance might cover the first
$200,000, but a personal liability policy might cover certain amounts over
$200,000. This is called secondary or supplemental coverage.
Holding personal happiness with our coverage does nothing to provide
satisfaction to someone else concerned about the havoc we might wreck on
their property. Some 3rd parties simply require a copy of our declarations
page. Others require us to listed them as a "named insured". Still others
require listing as a "named beneficiary" to a policy where the rights under
the insurance policy flow to them, including defense costs and payment of
any judgment or settlement arising from a claim.
As I understand it (others might know better), US Windsurfing offered
insurance mostly to help organized events get off the ground. I understand
that US Windsurfing also offered insurance to recognized clubs so that they
could run events.
My view is that US Windsurfing should, if practical, provide a policy
whereby dues-paying clubs can gain coverage for club events. This achieves
certain reasonable goals: it provides members of those clubs a way to gain
certain coverage where the risk is greater (teaching a group of beginners or
running a regatta); it provides a way for the clubs to increase their
membership and provides another reason why a windsurfer might consider
joining US Windsurfing. Such a plan does not address your dilemma of
facing expulsion from a launch site.
For that case, I suggest nailing down what _exactly_ the landowner or
business requires you to have. I sympathies with anyone told not to launch
until "you get insurance to cover us" without being told what will suffice
in specific terms. It's been my experience that most insurance companies
will add a named insured without any additional cost to you. I hope I have
described certain insurance options in enough loose detail so as to help arm
you with the info you need to have a conversation.
-Dan
"Glenn Woodell" wrote in message
news:csp2t0$637$2@news2.news.larc.nasa.gov...
> In article , dwus484@comcast.net
> says...
>>
>>Glenn: I have been working on this. So far, unfortunately, all I can
>>find
>>is the following: each sailor has his or her own personal liability
>>policy
>>(different from homeowner's insurance) that either does not exclude
>>windsurfing activities or explicitly covers it in a rider; and/or a
>>general
>>liability policy that covers the landowner for accidents occurring on his
>>or
>>her property.
>
> Where did you find this? I do not have personal liability insurance.
>
>>I know we have been over this, but please refresh my memory. What form of
>>coverage do you seek? A personal policy for each individual that moves
>>with
>>him, a group policy for a local windsurfing association, or a national
>>policy whereby your premiums go to pay for coverage of people you don't
>>even
>>know?
>>
>>-Dan
>
> Beats me. I'm talking about personal liability insurance such that if I am
> sailing off of a beach, the owners will be satisfied that I have coverage
> enough not to sue them for tripping on their boardwalk. Beats me how you
> cover
> that but that's is what some entities want. They don't want to lose
> anything
> for letting us sail off of their property. We cannot participate in city
> events as a club unless we have some sort of liability insurance. We
> usually
> get it by going through our local shop. I guess it would also cover things
> like running into a swimmer or having a sail go flying through a crowd,
> none
> of which has ever happened around here that I know of.
>
> Glenn
>
|
|
| | From: | Steve Pretti | | Subject: | Re: New Windsurfing Insurance Topic (continuation) | | Date: | Fri, 21 Jan 2005 09:19:39 -0500 |
|
|
| I understand the implication that a homeowner should talk to their insurance
agent to make sure they have additional personal liability coverage.
Does this also mean that someone who is not a homeowner or a motor vehicle
owner should seek out a personal liability policy?
If so, should that person seek a liability policy similar to that you would
have as a boat owner?
If that is the case, would a commercial entity such as Boat U.S. entertain
the notion of insuring the liability of a person's on-the-water activities
with regard to windsurfing?
- Steve Pretti
"Dan Weiss" wrote in message
news:I_ydncE3drdW2G3cRVn-hQ@comcast.com...
> Glenn:
>
> I'm far from an expert on insurance, but I deal with it in some respects
as
> I help my clients navigate risk. Here's a thumbnail of some issues and
> observations:
>
> Having insurance sufficient to satisfy a claim against you for negligent
> behavior comes in several forms depending on the venue. You might get
this
> coverage in a basic homeowners policy, but probably not to such a degree
or
> with to many restrictions as to make a separate personal liability policy
> somewhat attractive. A personal (a.k.a. "general liability") policy
covers
> you for negligence that causes injury to another in cases where your home
> owners policy simply do not cover. That's the same reason why we purchase
> automobile insurance that almost always includes separate liability
coverage
> for damages you cause. Even though your homeowners might cover certain
> scenarios involving negligence, it doesn't cover your actions when driving
> your car. Likewise, a personal liability policy aims to cover those
> occurrences that otherwise go uncovered by other types of insurance,
whether
> because the situation is excluded by the primary policy, or whether the
> damages exceeds the maximum coverage. Sometimes you can "stack" these
> policies together, such as if you are found personally responsible for a
car
> wreck that damages another, your car insurance might cover the first
> $200,000, but a personal liability policy might cover certain amounts over
> $200,000. This is called secondary or supplemental coverage.
>
> Holding personal happiness with our coverage does nothing to provide
> satisfaction to someone else concerned about the havoc we might wreck on
> their property. Some 3rd parties simply require a copy of our
declarations
> page. Others require us to listed them as a "named insured". Still
others
> require listing as a "named beneficiary" to a policy where the rights
under
> the insurance policy flow to them, including defense costs and payment of
> any judgment or settlement arising from a claim.
>
> As I understand it (others might know better), US Windsurfing offered
> insurance mostly to help organized events get off the ground. I
understand
> that US Windsurfing also offered insurance to recognized clubs so that
they
> could run events.
>
> My view is that US Windsurfing should, if practical, provide a policy
> whereby dues-paying clubs can gain coverage for club events. This
achieves
> certain reasonable goals: it provides members of those clubs a way to
gain
> certain coverage where the risk is greater (teaching a group of beginners
or
> running a regatta); it provides a way for the clubs to increase their
> membership and provides another reason why a windsurfer might consider
> joining US Windsurfing. Such a plan does not address your dilemma of
> facing expulsion from a launch site.
>
> For that case, I suggest nailing down what _exactly_ the landowner or
> business requires you to have. I sympathies with anyone told not to launch
> until "you get insurance to cover us" without being told what will suffice
> in specific terms. It's been my experience that most insurance companies
> will add a named insured without any additional cost to you. I hope I
have
> described certain insurance options in enough loose detail so as to help
arm
> you with the info you need to have a conversation.
>
> -Dan
> "Glenn Woodell" wrote in message
> news:csp2t0$637$2@news2.news.larc.nasa.gov...
> > In article , dwus484@comcast.net
> > says...
> >>
> >>Glenn: I have been working on this. So far, unfortunately, all I can
> >>find
> >>is the following: each sailor has his or her own personal liability
> >>policy
> >>(different from homeowner's insurance) that either does not exclude
> >>windsurfing activities or explicitly covers it in a rider; and/or a
> >>general
> >>liability policy that covers the landowner for accidents occurring on
his
> >>or
> >>her property.
> >
> > Where did you find this? I do not have personal liability insurance.
> >
> >>I know we have been over this, but please refresh my memory. What form
of
> >>coverage do you seek? A personal policy for each individual that moves
> >>with
> >>him, a group policy for a local windsurfing association, or a national
> >>policy whereby your premiums go to pay for coverage of people you don't
> >>even
> >>know?
> >>
> >>-Dan
> >
> > Beats me. I'm talking about personal liability insurance such that if I
am
> > sailing off of a beach, the owners will be satisfied that I have
coverage
> > enough not to sue them for tripping on their boardwalk. Beats me how you
> > cover
> > that but that's is what some entities want. They don't want to lose
> > anything
> > for letting us sail off of their property. We cannot participate in city
> > events as a club unless we have some sort of liability insurance. We
> > usually
> > get it by going through our local shop. I guess it would also cover
things
> > like running into a swimmer or having a sail go flying through a crowd,
> > none
> > of which has ever happened around here that I know of.
> >
> > Glenn
> >
>
>
>
|
|
| | From: | Dan Weiss | | Subject: | Re: New Windsurfing Insurance Topic (continuation) | | Date: | Fri, 21 Jan 2005 14:55:57 -0500 |
|
|
| Hey Steve: My replies interspersed:
"Steve Pretti" wrote in message
news:csr30t$1hl$1@trsvr.tr.unisys.com...
>I understand the implication that a homeowner should talk to their
>insurance
> agent to make sure they have additional personal liability coverage.
>
> Does this also mean that someone who is not a homeowner or a motor vehicle
> owner should seek out a personal liability policy?
It depends on how much you care to protect what you have and what you will
have in future years. Insurance is all about addressing quantified risk.
Homeowners want insurance because the present and future equity in their
home is at risk. If a person makes a lot of money, but owns no home nor a
car, my general thought would be that an insurance policy might pay out
instead of that person's future income being subject to collection efforts.
There are, on the other end of the spectrum, plenty of people who lawyers
call "judgment proof," meaning that they lack both assest and income to
satisfy any sizable judgment. From a purely economic view, these people
might think twice about paying for insurance. The social/ethical/moral
implications possibly lead to a different conclusion.
> If so, should that person seek a liability policy similar to that you
> would
> have as a boat owner?
The boat policy is, generally, analagous to a comprehensive auto policy in
most states. Damage occurs through the use or ownership of a boat, the
policy might cover it.
>
> If that is the case, would a commercial entity such as Boat U.S. entertain
> the notion of insuring the liability of a person's on-the-water
> activities
> with regard to windsurfing?
Now THAT is an interesting suggestion, but windsurfing must tread carefully
here due to the PFD issue. Most boat policies are written for, well, boats
and boaters. Every marine policy I've ever read require all sorts of things
not directly applicable to windsurfers, including the carrying of life
jackets sufficient for all on board _plus_ the minimum required by the USGC
or state law. Windsurfers fight PFD regulations tooth and nail, and to blur
the edges between boat and windsurfer tears down the argument that we are
different -namely that we operate only "in-shore" and our hulls cannot sink
and always provide some boyancy, plus we often wear wetsuits. The reasoning
goes on, but I think you can see the potential challenge.
I can say that the insurance underwriter for the US Sailing/US Windsurfing
school insurance program found NO claims ever filed against a windsurfing
school for injury! This confirms what we already know regarding the
inherent safety in our sport. The same cannot be said when viewed on a
sailor-by-sailor or board-by-board basis.
What might be even more interesting is if a holder of an existing boat
policy could shoe-horn windsurfing activity under it. I would not care to
be the lawyer arguing for coverage in that case, however, because most boat
policies are written on a boat-byboat basis and rates are extremely
dependent on the type of boat, the power (whether sail and/or power) the
specific location of the boat, and the time of year it is used. Answers to
these questions help the bean counters quantify the risk and set premiums
based not on loss or damage to the boat, but the risk posed to 3rd parties
and their property by use of the boat. OK, I would argue it, but only by
the hour!
You might read a policy to see what's excluded.
> - Steve Pretti
>
>
> "Dan Weiss" wrote in message
> news:I_ydncE3drdW2G3cRVn-hQ@comcast.com...
>> Glenn:
>>
>> I'm far from an expert on insurance, but I deal with it in some respects
> as
>> I help my clients navigate risk. Here's a thumbnail of some issues and
>> observations:
>>
>> Having insurance sufficient to satisfy a claim against you for negligent
>> behavior comes in several forms depending on the venue. You might get
> this
>> coverage in a basic homeowners policy, but probably not to such a degree
> or
>> with to many restrictions as to make a separate personal liability policy
>> somewhat attractive. A personal (a.k.a. "general liability") policy
> covers
>> you for negligence that causes injury to another in cases where your home
>> owners policy simply do not cover. That's the same reason why we
>> purchase
>> automobile insurance that almost always includes separate liability
> coverage
>> for damages you cause. Even though your homeowners might cover certain
>> scenarios involving negligence, it doesn't cover your actions when
>> driving
>> your car. Likewise, a personal liability policy aims to cover those
>> occurrences that otherwise go uncovered by other types of insurance,
> whether
>> because the situation is excluded by the primary policy, or whether the
>> damages exceeds the maximum coverage. Sometimes you can "stack" these
>> policies together, such as if you are found personally responsible for a
> car
>> wreck that damages another, your car insurance might cover the first
>> $200,000, but a personal liability policy might cover certain amounts
>> over
>> $200,000. This is called secondary or supplemental coverage.
>>
>> Holding personal happiness with our coverage does nothing to provide
>> satisfaction to someone else concerned about the havoc we might wreck on
>> their property. Some 3rd parties simply require a copy of our
> declarations
>> page. Others require us to listed them as a "named insured". Still
> others
>> require listing as a "named beneficiary" to a policy where the rights
> under
>> the insurance policy flow to them, including defense costs and payment of
>> any judgment or settlement arising from a claim.
>>
>> As I understand it (others might know better), US Windsurfing offered
>> insurance mostly to help organized events get off the ground. I
> understand
>> that US Windsurfing also offered insurance to recognized clubs so that
> they
>> could run events.
>>
>> My view is that US Windsurfing should, if practical, provide a policy
>> whereby dues-paying clubs can gain coverage for club events. This
> achieves
>> certain reasonable goals: it provides members of those clubs a way to
> gain
>> certain coverage where the risk is greater (teaching a group of beginners
> or
>> running a regatta); it provides a way for the clubs to increase their
>> membership and provides another reason why a windsurfer might consider
>> joining US Windsurfing. Such a plan does not address your dilemma of
>> facing expulsion from a launch site.
>>
>> For that case, I suggest nailing down what _exactly_ the landowner or
>> business requires you to have. I sympathies with anyone told not to
>> launch
>> until "you get insurance to cover us" without being told what will
>> suffice
>> in specific terms. It's been my experience that most insurance companies
>> will add a named insured without any additional cost to you. I hope I
> have
>> described certain insurance options in enough loose detail so as to help
> arm
>> you with the info you need to have a conversation.
>>
>> -Dan
>> "Glenn Woodell" wrote in message
>> news:csp2t0$637$2@news2.news.larc.nasa.gov...
>> > In article , dwus484@comcast.net
>> > says...
>> >>
>> >>Glenn: I have been working on this. So far, unfortunately, all I can
>> >>find
>> >>is the following: each sailor has his or her own personal liability
>> >>policy
>> >>(different from homeowner's insurance) that either does not exclude
>> >>windsurfing activities or explicitly covers it in a rider; and/or a
>> >>general
>> >>liability policy that covers the landowner for accidents occurring on
> his
>> >>or
>> >>her property.
>> >
>> > Where did you find this? I do not have personal liability insurance.
>> >
>> >>I know we have been over this, but please refresh my memory. What form
> of
>> >>coverage do you seek? A personal policy for each individual that moves
>> >>with
>> >>him, a group policy for a local windsurfing association, or a national
>> >>policy whereby your premiums go to pay for coverage of people you don't
>> >>even
>> >>know?
>> >>
>> >>-Dan
>> >
>> > Beats me. I'm talking about personal liability insurance such that if I
> am
>> > sailing off of a beach, the owners will be satisfied that I have
> coverage
>> > enough not to sue them for tripping on their boardwalk. Beats me how
>> > you
>> > cover
>> > that but that's is what some entities want. They don't want to lose
>> > anything
>> > for letting us sail off of their property. We cannot participate in
>> > city
>> > events as a club unless we have some sort of liability insurance. We
>> > usually
>> > get it by going through our local shop. I guess it would also cover
> things
>> > like running into a swimmer or having a sail go flying through a crowd,
>> > none
>> > of which has ever happened around here that I know of.
>> >
>> > Glenn
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>
>
|
|
| | From: | Steve Pretti | | Subject: | Re: New Windsurfing Insurance Topic (continuation) | | Date: | Fri, 21 Jan 2005 23:33:24 GMT |
|
|
| I am a homeowner and my homeowners policy covers my activities in boats
under my control up to 25'. I vaguely remember the policy having some kind
of exclusion for watertoys, but I'll have to look at the policy to get the
details.
Interesting.
"Dan Weiss" wrote in message
news:WYSdnUlO55jWw2zcRVn-gg@comcast.com...
> Hey Steve: My replies interspersed:
> "Steve Pretti" wrote in message
> news:csr30t$1hl$1@trsvr.tr.unisys.com...
>>I understand the implication that a homeowner should talk to their
>>insurance
>> agent to make sure they have additional personal liability coverage.
>>
>> Does this also mean that someone who is not a homeowner or a motor
>> vehicle
>> owner should seek out a personal liability policy?
>
> It depends on how much you care to protect what you have and what you will
> have in future years. Insurance is all about addressing quantified risk.
> Homeowners want insurance because the present and future equity in their
> home is at risk. If a person makes a lot of money, but owns no home nor a
> car, my general thought would be that an insurance policy might pay out
> instead of that person's future income being subject to collection
> efforts. There are, on the other end of the spectrum, plenty of people who
> lawyers call "judgment proof," meaning that they lack both assest and
> income to satisfy any sizable judgment. From a purely economic view,
> these people might think twice about paying for insurance. The
> social/ethical/moral implications possibly lead to a different conclusion.
>
>
>> If so, should that person seek a liability policy similar to that you
>> would
>> have as a boat owner?
>
> The boat policy is, generally, analagous to a comprehensive auto policy in
> most states. Damage occurs through the use or ownership of a boat, the
> policy might cover it.
>>
>> If that is the case, would a commercial entity such as Boat U.S.
>> entertain
>> the notion of insuring the liability of a person's on-the-water
>> activities
>> with regard to windsurfing?
>
> Now THAT is an interesting suggestion, but windsurfing must tread
> carefully here due to the PFD issue. Most boat policies are written for,
> well, boats and boaters. Every marine policy I've ever read require all
> sorts of things not directly applicable to windsurfers, including the
> carrying of life jackets sufficient for all on board _plus_ the minimum
> required by the USGC or state law. Windsurfers fight PFD regulations
> tooth and nail, and to blur the edges between boat and windsurfer tears
> down the argument that we are different -namely that we operate only
> "in-shore" and our hulls cannot sink and always provide some boyancy, plus
> we often wear wetsuits. The reasoning goes on, but I think you can see
> the potential challenge.
>
> I can say that the insurance underwriter for the US Sailing/US Windsurfing
> school insurance program found NO claims ever filed against a windsurfing
> school for injury! This confirms what we already know regarding the
> inherent safety in our sport. The same cannot be said when viewed on a
> sailor-by-sailor or board-by-board basis.
>
> What might be even more interesting is if a holder of an existing boat
> policy could shoe-horn windsurfing activity under it. I would not care to
> be the lawyer arguing for coverage in that case, however, because most
> boat policies are written on a boat-byboat basis and rates are extremely
> dependent on the type of boat, the power (whether sail and/or power) the
> specific location of the boat, and the time of year it is used. Answers
> to these questions help the bean counters quantify the risk and set
> premiums based not on loss or damage to the boat, but the risk posed to
> 3rd parties and their property by use of the boat. OK, I would argue it,
> but only by the hour!
>
> You might read a policy to see what's excluded.
>
>> - Steve Pretti
>>
>>
>> "Dan Weiss" wrote in message
>> news:I_ydncE3drdW2G3cRVn-hQ@comcast.com...
>>> Glenn:
>>>
>>> I'm far from an expert on insurance, but I deal with it in some respects
>> as
>>> I help my clients navigate risk. Here's a thumbnail of some issues and
>>> observations:
>>>
>>> Having insurance sufficient to satisfy a claim against you for negligent
>>> behavior comes in several forms depending on the venue. You might get
>> this
>>> coverage in a basic homeowners policy, but probably not to such a degree
>> or
>>> with to many restrictions as to make a separate personal liability
>>> policy
>>> somewhat attractive. A personal (a.k.a. "general liability") policy
>> covers
>>> you for negligence that causes injury to another in cases where your
>>> home
>>> owners policy simply do not cover. That's the same reason why we
>>> purchase
>>> automobile insurance that almost always includes separate liability
>> coverage
>>> for damages you cause. Even though your homeowners might cover certain
>>> scenarios involving negligence, it doesn't cover your actions when
>>> driving
>>> your car. Likewise, a personal liability policy aims to cover those
>>> occurrences that otherwise go uncovered by other types of insurance,
>> whether
>>> because the situation is excluded by the primary policy, or whether the
>>> damages exceeds the maximum coverage. Sometimes you can "stack" these
>>> policies together, such as if you are found personally responsible for a
>> car
>>> wreck that damages another, your car insurance might cover the first
>>> $200,000, but a personal liability policy might cover certain amounts
>>> over
>>> $200,000. This is called secondary or supplemental coverage.
>>>
>>> Holding personal happiness with our coverage does nothing to provide
>>> satisfaction to someone else concerned about the havoc we might wreck on
>>> their property. Some 3rd parties simply require a copy of our
>> declarations
>>> page. Others require us to listed them as a "named insured". Still
>> others
>>> require listing as a "named beneficiary" to a policy where the rights
>> under
>>> the insurance policy flow to them, including defense costs and payment
>>> of
>>> any judgment or settlement arising from a claim.
>>>
>>> As I understand it (others might know better), US Windsurfing offered
>>> insurance mostly to help organized events get off the ground. I
>> understand
>>> that US Windsurfing also offered insurance to recognized clubs so that
>> they
>>> could run events.
>>>
>>> My view is that US Windsurfing should, if practical, provide a policy
>>> whereby dues-paying clubs can gain coverage for club events. This
>> achieves
>>> certain reasonable goals: it provides members of those clubs a way to
>> gain
>>> certain coverage where the risk is greater (teaching a group of
>>> beginners
>> or
>>> running a regatta); it provides a way for the clubs to increase their
>>> membership and provides another reason why a windsurfer might consider
>>> joining US Windsurfing. Such a plan does not address your dilemma of
>>> facing expulsion from a launch site.
>>>
>>> For that case, I suggest nailing down what _exactly_ the landowner or
>>> business requires you to have. I sympathies with anyone told not to
>>> launch
>>> until "you get insurance to cover us" without being told what will
>>> suffice
>>> in specific terms. It's been my experience that most insurance
>>> companies
>>> will add a named insured without any additional cost to you. I hope I
>> have
>>> described certain insurance options in enough loose detail so as to help
>> arm
>>> you with the info you need to have a conversation.
>>>
>>> -Dan
>>> "Glenn Woodell" wrote in message
>>> news:csp2t0$637$2@news2.news.larc.nasa.gov...
>>> > In article , dwus484@comcast.net
>>> > says...
>>> >>
>>> >>Glenn: I have been working on this. So far, unfortunately, all I
>>> >>can
>>> >>find
>>> >>is the following: each sailor has his or her own personal liability
>>> >>policy
>>> >>(different from homeowner's insurance) that either does not exclude
>>> >>windsurfing activities or explicitly covers it in a rider; and/or a
>>> >>general
>>> >>liability policy that covers the landowner for accidents occurring on
>> his
>>> >>or
>>> >>her property.
>>> >
>>> > Where did you find this? I do not have personal liability insurance.
>>> >
>>> >>I know we have been over this, but please refresh my memory. What
>>> >>form
>> of
>>> >>coverage do you seek? A personal policy for each individual that
>>> >>moves
>>> >>with
>>> >>him, a group policy for a local windsurfing association, or a national
>>> >>policy whereby your premiums go to pay for coverage of people you
>>> >>don't
>>> >>even
>>> >>know?
>>> >>
>>> >>-Dan
>>> >
>>> > Beats me. I'm talking about personal liability insurance such that if
>>> > I
>> am
>>> > sailing off of a beach, the owners will be satisfied that I have
>> coverage
>>> > enough not to sue them for tripping on their boardwalk. Beats me how
>>> > you
>>> > cover
>>> > that but that's is what some entities want. They don't want to lose
>>> > anything
>>> > for letting us sail off of their property. We cannot participate in
>>> > city
>>> > events as a club unless we have some sort of liability insurance. We
>>> > usually
>>> > get it by going through our local shop. I guess it would also cover
>> things
>>> > like running into a swimmer or having a sail go flying through a
>>> > crowd,
>>> > none
>>> > of which has ever happened around here that I know of.
>>> >
>>> > Glenn
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
|
|
| | From: | Dan Weiss | | Subject: | Re: New Windsurfing Insurance Topic (continuation) | | Date: | Sat, 22 Jan 2005 12:48:09 -0500 |
|
|
| If your policy is anything like others, it covers a loss or damage to your
real or personal property for certain causes, but not for injury to others.
Thus, you might make a claim if a small house fire ruined an expensive rug
or burned a wall, but probably would be denied if you sought coverage for an
injury you caused by burning down someone else's house at their backyard
BBQ.
That's the difference between property coverage and basic liability
coverage. One covers damage to specific property caused by certain events,
the other covers damage you cause to persons or property belonging to
another.
I understand some "umbrella" policies cover both categories of scenarios.
-Dan
"Steve Pretti" wrote in message
news:8jgId.11145$Vx2.3550@trndny01...
>I am a homeowner and my homeowners policy covers my activities in boats
>under my control up to 25'. I vaguely remember the policy having some kind
>of exclusion for watertoys, but I'll have to look at the policy to get the
>details.
>
> Interesting.
>
> "Dan Weiss" wrote in message
> news:WYSdnUlO55jWw2zcRVn-gg@comcast.com...
>> Hey Steve: My replies interspersed:
>> "Steve Pretti" wrote in message
>> news:csr30t$1hl$1@trsvr.tr.unisys.com...
>>>I understand the implication that a homeowner should talk to their
>>>insurance
>>> agent to make sure they have additional personal liability coverage.
>>>
>>> Does this also mean that someone who is not a homeowner or a motor
>>> vehicle
>>> owner should seek out a personal liability policy?
>>
>> It depends on how much you care to protect what you have and what you
>> will have in future years. Insurance is all about addressing quantified
>> risk. Homeowners want insurance because the present and future equity in
>> their home is at risk. If a person makes a lot of money, but owns no
>> home nor a car, my general thought would be that an insurance policy
>> might pay out instead of that person's future income being subject to
>> collection efforts. There are, on the other end of the spectrum, plenty
>> of people who lawyers call "judgment proof," meaning that they lack both
>> assest and income to satisfy any sizable judgment. From a purely
>> economic view, these people might think twice about paying for insurance.
>> The social/ethical/moral implications possibly lead to a different
>> conclusion.
>>
>>
>>> If so, should that person seek a liability policy similar to that you
>>> would
>>> have as a boat owner?
>>
>> The boat policy is, generally, analagous to a comprehensive auto policy
>> in most states. Damage occurs through the use or ownership of a boat,
>> the policy might cover it.
>>>
>>> If that is the case, would a commercial entity such as Boat U.S.
>>> entertain
>>> the notion of insuring the liability of a person's on-the-water
>>> activities
>>> with regard to windsurfing?
>>
>> Now THAT is an interesting suggestion, but windsurfing must tread
>> carefully here due to the PFD issue. Most boat policies are written for,
>> well, boats and boaters. Every marine policy I've ever read require all
>> sorts of things not directly applicable to windsurfers, including the
>> carrying of life jackets sufficient for all on board _plus_ the minimum
>> required by the USGC or state law. Windsurfers fight PFD regulations
>> tooth and nail, and to blur the edges between boat and windsurfer tears
>> down the argument that we are different -namely that we operate only
>> "in-shore" and our hulls cannot sink and always provide some boyancy,
>> plus we often wear wetsuits. The reasoning goes on, but I think you can
>> see the potential challenge.
>>
>> I can say that the insurance underwriter for the US Sailing/US
>> Windsurfing school insurance program found NO claims ever filed against a
>> windsurfing school for injury! This confirms what we already know
>> regarding the inherent safety in our sport. The same cannot be said when
>> viewed on a sailor-by-sailor or board-by-board basis.
>>
>> What might be even more interesting is if a holder of an existing boat
>> policy could shoe-horn windsurfing activity under it. I would not care
>> to be the lawyer arguing for coverage in that case, however, because most
>> boat policies are written on a boat-byboat basis and rates are extremely
>> dependent on the type of boat, the power (whether sail and/or power) the
>> specific location of the boat, and the time of year it is used. Answers
>> to these questions help the bean counters quantify the risk and set
>> premiums based not on loss or damage to the boat, but the risk posed to
>> 3rd parties and their property by use of the boat. OK, I would argue it,
>> but only by the hour!
>>
>> You might read a policy to see what's excluded.
>>
>>> - Steve Pretti
>>>
>>>
>>> "Dan Weiss" wrote in message
>>> news:I_ydncE3drdW2G3cRVn-hQ@comcast.com...
>>>> Glenn:
>>>>
>>>> I'm far from an expert on insurance, but I deal with it in some
>>>> respects
>>> as
>>>> I help my clients navigate risk. Here's a thumbnail of some issues and
>>>> observations:
>>>>
>>>> Having insurance sufficient to satisfy a claim against you for
>>>> negligent
>>>> behavior comes in several forms depending on the venue. You might get
>>> this
>>>> coverage in a basic homeowners policy, but probably not to such a
>>>> degree
>>> or
>>>> with to many restrictions as to make a separate personal liability
>>>> policy
>>>> somewhat attractive. A personal (a.k.a. "general liability") policy
>>> covers
>>>> you for negligence that causes injury to another in cases where your
>>>> home
>>>> owners policy simply do not cover. That's the same reason why we
>>>> purchase
>>>> automobile insurance that almost always includes separate liability
>>> coverage
>>>> for damages you cause. Even though your homeowners might cover certain
>>>> scenarios involving negligence, it doesn't cover your actions when
>>>> driving
>>>> your car. Likewise, a personal liability policy aims to cover those
>>>> occurrences that otherwise go uncovered by other types of insurance,
>>> whether
>>>> because the situation is excluded by the primary policy, or whether the
>>>> damages exceeds the maximum coverage. Sometimes you can "stack" these
>>>> policies together, such as if you are found personally responsible for
>>>> a
>>> car
>>>> wreck that damages another, your car insurance might cover the first
>>>> $200,000, but a personal liability policy might cover certain amounts
>>>> over
>>>> $200,000. This is called secondary or supplemental coverage.
>>>>
>>>> Holding personal happiness with our coverage does nothing to provide
>>>> satisfaction to someone else concerned about the havoc we might wreck
>>>> on
>>>> their property. Some 3rd parties simply require a copy of our
>>> declarations
>>>> page. Others require us to listed them as a "named insured". Still
>>> others
>>>> require listing as a "named beneficiary" to a policy where the rights
>>> under
>>>> the insurance policy flow to them, including defense costs and payment
>>>> of
>>>> any judgment or settlement arising from a claim.
>>>>
>>>> As I understand it (others might know better), US Windsurfing offered
>>>> insurance mostly to help organized events get off the ground. I
>>> understand
>>>> that US Windsurfing also offered insurance to recognized clubs so that
>>> they
>>>> could run events.
>>>>
>>>> My view is that US Windsurfing should, if practical, provide a policy
>>>> whereby dues-paying clubs can gain coverage for club events. This
>>> achieves
>>>> certain reasonable goals: it provides members of those clubs a way to
>>> gain
>>>> certain coverage where the risk is greater (teaching a group of
>>>> beginners
>>> or
>>>> running a regatta); it provides a way for the clubs to increase their
>>>> membership and provides another reason why a windsurfer might consider
>>>> joining US Windsurfing. Such a plan does not address your dilemma of
>>>> facing expulsion from a launch site.
>>>>
>>>> For that case, I suggest nailing down what _exactly_ the landowner or
>>>> business requires you to have. I sympathies with anyone told not to
>>>> launch
>>>> until "you get insurance to cover us" without being told what will
>>>> suffice
>>>> in specific terms. It's been my experience that most insurance
>>>> companies
>>>> will add a named insured without any additional cost to you. I hope I
>>> have
>>>> described certain insurance options in enough loose detail so as to
>>>> help
>>> arm
>>>> you with the info you need to have a conversation.
>>>>
>>>> -Dan
>>>> "Glenn Woodell" wrote in
>>>> message
>>>> news:csp2t0$637$2@news2.news.larc.nasa.gov...
>>>> > In article , dwus484@comcast.net
>>>> > says...
>>>> >>
>>>> >>Glenn: I have been working on this. So far, unfortunately, all I
>>>> >>can
>>>> >>find
>>>> >>is the following: each sailor has his or her own personal liability
>>>> >>policy
>>>> >>(different from homeowner's insurance) that either does not exclude
>>>> >>windsurfing activities or explicitly covers it in a rider; and/or a
>>>> >>general
>>>> >>liability policy that covers the landowner for accidents occurring on
>>> his
>>>> >>or
>>>> >>her property.
>>>> >
>>>> > Where did you find this? I do not have personal liability insurance.
>>>> >
>>>> >>I know we have been over this, but please refresh my memory. What
>>>> >>form
>>> of
>>>> >>coverage do you seek? A personal policy for each individual that
>>>> >>moves
>>>> >>with
>>>> >>him, a group policy for a local windsurfing association, or a
>>>> >>national
>>>> >>policy whereby your premiums go to pay for coverage of people you
>>>> >>don't
>>>> >>even
>>>> >>know?
>>>> >>
>>>> >>-Dan
>>>> >
>>>> > Beats me. I'm talking about personal liability insurance such that if
>>>> > I
>>> am
>>>> > sailing off of a beach, the owners will be satisfied that I have
>>> coverage
>>>> > enough not to sue them for tripping on their boardwalk. Beats me how
>>>> > you
>>>> > cover
>>>> > that but that's is what some entities want. They don't want to lose
>>>> > anything
>>>> > for letting us sail off of their property. We cannot participate in
>>>> > city
>>>> > events as a club unless we have some sort of liability insurance. We
>>>> > usually
>>>> > get it by going through our local shop. I guess it would also cover
>>> things
>>>> > like running into a swimmer or having a sail go flying through a
>>>> > crowd,
>>>> > none
>>>> > of which has ever happened around here that I know of.
>>>> >
>>>> > Glenn
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
|
|
| | From: | Scott | | Subject: | Re: New Windsurfing Insurance Topic (continuation) | | Date: | Fri, 21 Jan 2005 18:05:16 -0800 |
|
|
| My casual uninformed reading of the situation described below makes it sound
like it is not so much a matter of insurance coverage as one of a liability
waiver. I think the owner wants to be assured that he is not liable for
anything that occurs as a result of people sailing off his beach, yes? An
owner can hardly be guaranteed that an insurance policy can cover every
possible situation or claim amount, and even if you do have some sort of
"personal" insurance, there is still no guarantee that the insurace company
won't conclude that the owner should be held liable and either refuses to
pay a claim or pays and then goes after the owner to recoup. Why can't a
liability waiver be drafted to hold the owner harmless for usage of his/her
beach?
Scott
> >>-Dan
> >
> > Beats me. I'm talking about personal liability insurance such that if I
am
> > sailing off of a beach, the owners will be satisfied that I have
coverage
> > enough not to sue them for tripping on their boardwalk. Beats me how you
> > cover
> > that but that's is what some entities want. They don't want to lose
> > anything
> > for letting us sail off of their property. We cannot participate in city
> > events as a club unless we have some sort of liability insurance. We
> > usually
> > get it by going through our local shop. I guess it would also cover
things
> > like running into a swimmer or having a sail go flying through a crowd,
> > none
> > of which has ever happened around here that I know of.
> >
> > Glenn
> >
>
>
>
|
|
| | From: | Dan Weiss | | Subject: | Re: New Windsurfing Insurance Topic (continuation) | | Date: | Sat, 22 Jan 2005 12:55:40 -0500 |
|
|
| Scott: You nailed another element of the big three of risk management.
Event organizers use damage waivers all the time for this reason.
The limitation of a waiver is that it only waives the rights of the
signatory. It does nothing to prevent others from suing. The cousin of a
waiver is called indemnification. That means that where a third person is
injured on BillJoeJimBob's property by your negligence and sues
BillyJoeJimBob as the landowner, you agree to pay any loss that
BillyJoeJimBob endures as a result of the suit against him by the third
party.
That's where insurance comes in, to provide assurance to BillyJoeJimBob that
you can actually live up to your indemnification provisions.
-Dan
"Scott" wrote in message
news:csscp3$5m1$1@nwnexus-news.nwnexus.com...
> My casual uninformed reading of the situation described below makes it
> sound
> like it is not so much a matter of insurance coverage as one of a
> liability
> waiver. I think the owner wants to be assured that he is not liable for
> anything that occurs as a result of people sailing off his beach, yes? An
> owner can hardly be guaranteed that an insurance policy can cover every
> possible situation or claim amount, and even if you do have some sort of
> "personal" insurance, there is still no guarantee that the insurace
> company
> won't conclude that the owner should be held liable and either refuses to
> pay a claim or pays and then goes after the owner to recoup. Why can't a
> liability waiver be drafted to hold the owner harmless for usage of
> his/her
> beach?
>
> Scott
>
>> >>-Dan
>> >
>> > Beats me. I'm talking about personal liability insurance such that if I
> am
>> > sailing off of a beach, the owners will be satisfied that I have
> coverage
>> > enough not to sue them for tripping on their boardwalk. Beats me how
>> > you
>> > cover
>> > that but that's is what some entities want. They don't want to lose
>> > anything
>> > for letting us sail off of their property. We cannot participate in
>> > city
>> > events as a club unless we have some sort of liability insurance. We
>> > usually
>> > get it by going through our local shop. I guess it would also cover
> things
>> > like running into a swimmer or having a sail go flying through a crowd,
>> > none
>> > of which has ever happened around here that I know of.
>> >
>> > Glenn
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>
>
|
|
|
