> He's going out in this cold? Lance, wussy boy, outside, this I gotta
> see. ;)

I had my doubts too, but he showed up at the starting line, and he's
listed
among the finishers.
________________

Donovan is so full of shit. He ate the friggen course up! (I'll ge to
him later). Me? Oh the running gods punished me good this morning. I
had not run in a week and when I woke up, it was 5F. I went back to
bed and said "hell no". One of my running buddies called me to make
sure I was there so he could give me a good ass kicking. I gave in
to the peer pressure...and put on some gear, showed up. Right as I
line up...coincidentally next to Donovan.

2000+ freezing people all wanting not to be there...except Donovan. I
was 8F. Donnie had one of those looks on his face as if he was
licking his chops....and about to feast. It was so cold most of his
running club did not show up....many of the competitive new york road
runners were not there....too damn cold. When you're at a race and
it's this kind of weather...you want to race to start, end, and you
want to go home. ASAP!

My Toes were FROZEN. My hands were warm thanks to Gore-tex mitts...but
my toes were frozen. Race starts and it's "bye donovan"....he was off
in a flash. the first mile included a stretch downhill that exposed
runners to a slight breeze...but when it's 8F, a slight breeze kills.
I could feel the coldness from an open/clear shot of breeze hit every
single pore in my face. My god...I felt all moisture in my face formed
a frozen lattice...and was going to simply drop off.

I had not ran in a cold race in a while....2 years. I ran one race in
0F, once in -1F..this was 8F. I did not feel any sense of warmpth
until mile 4.5 or so. And shit...by then you're like, "F it...let me
just get through this BS and go home". I got through the race....time
sucked. Managed to nab the #20 spot in my AG so that the only silver
lining in an otherwise totally humbling experience.

You can't F with the running gods. You gotta put in your miles. I
did not...just runnng again after not doing so in a week was weird.
Feeling 8F weather was totally shocking. I felt like a fish out of
water the whole race.

Donovan? This guy came pretty damn close to getting a top 10 spot in
the entire field of all runners....I think he finished 12th overall out
of all 2000. He did sub 6:00 / Mile on a tough course with a hairpin
turn (which always sucks and screws with your time) over 7 miles in 8F
for crissakes. Jeeeezzzzzzzzzz ? Who can complain about that?

The Lesson? Donovan trains. You gotta train no matter the weather.
Race day has a way of recognizing giving back....to those that put in
(the work). I could not even get my sprint on. Hell there was about
150 yards left in the race......and I had 2 runners about 20 yards
ahead of me that I knew I could snatch easily...one was in fact
Donovan's teammate....a woman. She passed me with about 1/2mile left
in the race. All of a sudden I see Donovan doing some "cooling off"
jogging post his finish on the side and rooting finishers on....and
with about 100 yards left...I tried to get into my sprint mode...and I
just _could not_! I did not feel like it (sad to say). I had no
motivation to "do my thing". I just wanted to finish and get the hell
out of there. I mounted no sprint challenge...nothing. I just
finished and got the hell out of there.

Today I got beat every way a runner can. Not properly trained,
psychology was not "in it", not even conditioned for the climate. It
shocked me.

About 5 hours after the race I lurked this ng and read Doug's jerking
me over. Looked out my window at the 4" of snow mid-blizzard on it's
way...put on my gear and went out and did 4 miles in Central Park,
unplowed. Damn it was tough...the collecting of ice-snow on your
cheecks/face....brutal stuff. Even striking the ground was like
running in sand. Great stretch for my calves though. Just got back
home. I have a 10 miler in a week. I'm going to get my 9 milers back
in and not fall off the map entirely. I gotta get through this winter
no matter what, blizzard or no blizzard.

That woman on Donovans team that beat me by 20 or so yards? I know she
put in the work where I did not. I bet she put in the work. I did
6:48 miles. I should have done 6:32 miles.

And Donovan? He ate that friggen course up today. This was some
tough running you guys. Competitive runners turned today's race into a
"training run"...hell..I saw them finishing behind me. Donnie was the
only one who seemed to be happy to be there before the start, and happy
to be there afterward. Everyone else just wanted to get the hell out
of there.

From:	Doug Freese
Subject:	Re: central park, ny
Date:	Sun, 23 Jan 2005 12:57:17 GMT

wrote in message
news:1106429102.597991.180820@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Donovan is so full of shit. He ate the friggen course up! (I'll ge
> to
> him later). Me? Oh the running gods punished me good this morning.
> I
> had not run in a week and when I woke up, it was 5F. I went back to
> bed and said "hell no". One of my running buddies called me to make
> sure I was there so he could give me a good ass kicking. I gave in
> to the peer pressure...and put on some gear, showed up. Right as I
> line up...coincidentally next to Donovan.

I put plastic on my keyboard before I opened this missive. We'll make a
man out of you yet! :)

> My Toes were FROZEN. My hands were warm thanks to Gore-tex
> mitts...but
> my toes were frozen.

My feet have also been cold this year. I might be old age and piss poor
circulation but I credit it more to my shoes in general. My Asics have a
lot of vent holes in the front which allow a cold air in. I have been
experimenting with putting on two pairs of socks(a thin pair under a
heavier pair and putting some tape over the front mesh. Looks strange
with the tape. People think I taped to hold my shoes together. Anywho,
I did 14 yesterday and my feet were comfy. There was an outside
thermometer as we got near the top of the 1,100 foot incline that
said -8 and the wind was blowing like hell. Don't know or care what the
specific wind-chill was but I'd guess minus a bunch. Once we started
back down the hill we got out of the wind.

Eight crazies showed. One girl had face mask and looked like Hannibal
Lechter in "Silence of the Lambs" with ice on the front vent holes.
That's 5 females and 3 guys. I think the women are tougher!!!!

> I had not ran in a cold race in a while....2 years.

I question the sanity and safety(potential muscle pulls) of races in
these conditions. There is limit to this macho Big D racing stuff. ;)

> Today I got beat every way a runner can. Not properly trained,
> psychology was not "in it", not even conditioned for the climate. It
> shocked me.

I know this is heresy but you go out and play with the crazies and not
race. Think about it, what did it prove. Run slower and have more fun.
Start out at the back and watch the cute asses regardless of your gender
preference.

> About 5 hours after the race I lurked this ng and read Doug's jerking
> me over.

Cuz I loves ya!

-DougF

From:	Phil M.
Subject:	Re: central park, ny
Date:	Sun, 23 Jan 2005 13:59:20 GMT

Leafing through rec.running, I read a message from dfreese@hvc.rr.com of
23 Jan 2005:

> My feet have also been cold this year. I might be old age and piss
> poor circulation but I credit it more to my shoes in general.

Have you tried SmartWool socks?

> My Asics have a lot of vent holes in the front which allow a cold air
> in.

Are these the 2100s? What about water? Since you're running on trails, I
would think that this might be a problem. I've been thinking of getting a
pair of these. The extra ventilation might be a good thing for the hot
summer months.

> thin pair under a heavier pair and putting some tape over the front
> mesh. Looks strange with the tape. People think I taped to hold my
> shoes together.

You ultra guys have a thing for duct tape.

> Eight crazies showed. One girl had face mask and looked like Hannibal
> Lechter in "Silence of the Lambs" with ice on the front vent holes.

lol

> That's 5 females and 3 guys. I think the women are tougher!!!!

That's been proven billions of times. If males were the child-bearing
gender, we would have been extinct long ago.

Phil M.

From:	Doug Freese
Subject:	Re: central park, ny
Date:	Sun, 23 Jan 2005 15:56:43 GMT

"Phil M." wrote in message
news:Xns95E75BD89951Aseilogramp@216.77.188.18...

> Have you tried SmartWool socks?

Not that particular brand but similar stuff.

> Are these the 2100s?
Bothe theh 2100 and NB 1221

> What about water? Since you're running on trails, I
> would think that this might be a problem.

Not in the least. I want lots of venting especially for water. The last
thing you want is is a non-pourous top to keep the moisture in. this
would guarantee blisters. I know many trail geeks that drill small holes
on the sides to allow better drainage. IMO Gortex shoes are the wrong
direction in wet conditions.

> I've been thinking of getting a
> pair of these. The extra ventilation might be a good thing for the hot
> summer months.

FWIW, I swear by the Asics 2nnn line at least through 100 mile races.

> You ultra guys have a thing for duct tape.

I was in a hurry and I couldn't find the duct tape - used
Johnson&Johnson sport tape. I also use this tape for my feet/ankles in
long races or races with rocks and roots.

> That's been proven billions of times. If males were the child-bearing
> gender, we would have been extinct long ago.

Ya think we would all end up like Lance? ;) Rhetorical.

-DougF

From:	Dot
Subject:	Re: central park, ny
Date:	Mon, 24 Jan 2005 06:59:59 GMT

Doug Freese wrote:
> "Phil M." wrote in message
> news:Xns95E75BD89951Aseilogramp@216.77.188.18...
>
>
>>Have you tried SmartWool socks?
>
>
> Not that particular brand but similar stuff.
>
Weren't you using Ultimax? FWIW, I think my Smartwools (hiking, iirc,
but I also use light hikers) tend to do better than my Ultimax (not sure
what model, but I think it's their heaviest crew) in cooler, wet
conditions. I haven't gone back and tested my Ultimax in the snow
recently. Usually I'm in ss so I've got the neoprene overbootie on so
it's academic. However, last week, my shoes (no ss, no yaktrax) were
getting wet from snow and feet were starting to feel abraded after a
couple hours (almost blistery). I think the Smartwools are the roughest
inside of any of my socks (Ultimax, Bridgedale). And this gets
aggravated by vaseline softening feet. I think I'll try my Ultimax liner
sock, but that may make it too hot for anything except temps < 20F. (I'm
looking for something that works in summer also for multiple hours.)

>
>
> Not in the least. I want lots of venting especially for water. The last
> thing you want is is a non-pourous top to keep the moisture in. this
> would guarantee blisters. I know many trail geeks that drill small holes
> on the sides to allow better drainage. IMO Gortex shoes are the wrong
> direction in wet conditions.

That's why I'm curious about the Brooks Cascadia - looks like it has
holes for the drainage. Even if Scott Jurek wore them winning WS100, we
don't know how hot his feet got ;)

My old Grid Stabils used to go squish-squish when they got wet - even
from wet grass. My Trespasses drain reasonably well, if they can.
Running through wet grass or snow, they get damp, but never dry.

Dot

--
"You try to slow down and enjoy it. You try to look at the scenery. But
your brain can kind of go blank. All you want to do is tell your feet to
keep working."
-Cedar Petrosius, women's winner 2004 Matanuska Peak Challenge (14mi,
9000ft up and down)

From:	Phil M.
Subject:	Re: central park, ny
Date:	Sun, 23 Jan 2005 16:00:06 GMT

Leafing through rec.running, I read a message from dfreese@hvc.rr.com of 23
Jan 2005:

>> Are these the 2100s?
> Bothe theh 2100 and NB 1221
>
>> What about water? Since you're running on trails, I
>> would think that this might be a problem.
>
> Not in the least. I want lots of venting especially for water. The last
> thing you want is is a non-pourous top to keep the moisture in. this
> would guarantee blisters. I know many trail geeks that drill small holes
> on the sides to allow better drainage. IMO Gortex shoes are the wrong
> direction in wet conditions.

I understand now. I'm curious about forging rivers. Do most ultra runners
just leave their shoes on? I've seen the WS100 video where the top runners
left their shoes on and let the running motion dry them out. Would you
maybe have a dry pair of shoes and socks in your drop bag?

Phil M.

From:	Doug Freese
Subject:	Re: central park, ny
Date:	Sun, 23 Jan 2005 16:38:29 GMT

"Phil M." wrote in message
news:Xns95E770519232Fseilogramp@216.77.188.18...
> I understand now. I'm curious about forging rivers. Do most ultra
> runners
> just leave their shoes on? I've seen the WS100 video where the top
> runners
> left their shoes on and let the running motion dry them out. Would you
> maybe have a dry pair of shoes and socks in your drop bag?

If someone was to promise me there was only wet spot on the course I
might contemplate removal for a nanosecond. The water evaporates
quickly. If the water was dirty and grit gets in then you might want to
change socks if you can or at least untie and get the grit out.. In
general we just wade through the stream with a smile and keep on
truckin'. People do change shoes but for lots of reasons. A major one
is foot expansion plus or maybe some significant terrain changes. I'm
lucky in that my feel do not swell and usually start with a pair that
have maybe a 150 miles on them and no reason to change.

I ran races year in solid mud - why change, they only get muddy again.

If your using drop bags for your shoes you are limited to drop sites.
How many extra pairs should/would one carry if there were 5 drop areas?

-Doug

From:	Dot
Subject:	Re: central park, ny
Date:	Mon, 24 Jan 2005 06:58:12 GMT

Doug Freese wrote:
> "Phil M." wrote in message
> news:Xns95E770519232Fseilogramp@216.77.188.18...
>
>>I understand now. I'm curious about forging rivers. Do most ultra
>>runners
>>just leave their shoes on? I've seen the WS100 video where the top
>>runners
>>left their shoes on and let the running motion dry them out. Would you
>>maybe have a dry pair of shoes and socks in your drop bag?

I tested the drainage of my Trespasses this summer by wading in a river
near end of a long run. Probably within a few minutes, my shoes felt
dry, but I still had wet socks. Hot, dry day so shoes dried from the
outside, but I was wearing thick wool socks and they retained the water
for awhile.
>
>
> If someone was to promise me there was only wet spot on the course I
> might contemplate removal for a nanosecond. The water evaporates
> quickly.

Did it at Vermont 2003? ;)

>
> If your using drop bags for your shoes you are limited to drop sites.
> How many extra pairs should/would one carry if there were 5 drop areas?

This is what I like about the races where you just carry everything with
you - no decisions about what to leave where ;) - just a lot of decision
making about gear ahead of time.

Dot

--
"You try to slow down and enjoy it. You try to look at the scenery. But
your brain can kind of go blank. All you want to do is tell your feet to
keep working."
-Cedar Petrosius, women's winner 2004 Matanuska Peak Challenge (14mi,
9000ft up and down)

From:	Dot
Subject:	Re: central park, ny
Date:	Mon, 24 Jan 2005 07:03:09 GMT

Doug Freese wrote:
>
> My feet have also been cold this year. I might be old age and piss poor
> circulation but I credit it more to my shoes in general. My Asics have a
> lot of vent holes in the front which allow a cold air in.

I've been noticing a lot of people commenting on the breathability of
their shoes this year (2100's aren't the only) - in conjunction with
cold feet. Makes me wonder if this is related to many people buying
"winter" shoes, rather than depending on 1 pair year round. So the
manufacturers are making the "summer" shoe highly breathable - of
course, that lets in the grit, which some of the trail shoe
manufacturers are trying to keep out. Or the increased breathability of
regular shoes is feeding a flight to winter shoes.

>
> Eight crazies showed. One girl had face mask and looked like Hannibal
> Lechter in "Silence of the Lambs" with ice on the front vent holes.
> That's 5 females and 3 guys. I think the women are tougher!!!!

heh. You *know* so ;)

Dot

--
"You try to slow down and enjoy it. You try to look at the scenery. But
your brain can kind of go blank. All you want to do is tell your feet to
keep working."
-Cedar Petrosius, women's winner 2004 Matanuska Peak Challenge (14mi,
9000ft up and down)

From:	Donovan Rebbechi
Subject:	Re: central park, ny
Date:	Sun, 23 Jan 2005 01:02:16 +0000 (UTC)

On 2005-01-22, lanceandrew@aol.com wrote:

> 2000+ freezing people all wanting not to be there...except Donovan. I
> was 8F. Donnie had one of those looks on his face as if he was
> licking his chops....and about to feast. It was so cold most of his
> running club did not show up....many of the competitive new york road
> runners were not there....too damn cold. When you're at a race and

Yeah, smaller crowd for sure.

But there were some fast people there. Jerry, owner of Urban Athletics
showed. I ran with him for a bit, before he left me in the dust (even
though he's 14 years older than me). Matt Downin showed, and ran a time
comaprable to 33 minutes for 10k -- not bad, but not great for him. Maybe
one of these days, Fam and Downin will show up at the same race. Now that
would be interesting.

> it's this kind of weather...you want to race to start, end, and you
> want to go home. ASAP!
>
> My Toes were FROZEN. My hands were warm thanks to Gore-tex mitts...but
> my toes were frozen.

I was freezing before the start. I did a warmup, about 2 miles. That helped
a bit. Without that I would have been jogging the first 4 miles.

> I had not ran in a cold race in a while....2 years. I ran one race in
> 0F, once in -1F..this was 8F. I did not feel any sense of warmpth

Fred Lebow last yr was pretty close. The year before that, the Frostbite
(10 mile then) was damn cold. There's always one like this in Jan.

[snip]
> Donovan? This guy came pretty damn close to getting a top 10 spot in
> the entire field of all runners....I think he finished 12th overall out
> of all 2000. He did sub 6:00 / Mile on a tough course with a hairpin
> turn (which always sucks and screws with your time) over 7 miles in 8F
> for crissakes. Jeeeezzzzzzzzzz ? Who can complain about that?

I'm happy with my finishing spot -- this is the best I've placed. Would
have liked a better time though, especially after the mile PR -- I was
thinking my workouts were good for a 5:50 pace, and maybe I am but not
on that course.

Still, I'm somewhat upbeat. I'm in good shape for indoor track, which is
my main focus right now. I wasn't hoping for too much in this race,
because I knew going into it that the course was slow. And I know what I
have to work on when I prepare for 10k races in May/June -- I'll be doing
some fast NJ races around that time, probably Ridgewood 10k and Newport 10k.
Need to do more long tempo runs -- right now I'm fast and have good leg
turnover, but the wheels fall off after about 3-4 miles. I just can't
maintain the intensity for much longer than 20 minutes.

[snip]
> out of there. I mounted no sprint challenge...nothing. I just
> finished and got the hell out of there.

Really helps to do some speed work. Or something. Helps you get you in
the right mindset to do that.

[snip]
> That woman on Donovans team that beat me by 20 or so yards? I know she
> put in the work where I did not. I bet she put in the work. I did

She's one of the regulars at our Tues night speed workouts, and yes, she
showed up to a freezing workout this week. You know, if you want to come
to the Tues speed workouts, you can get your butt kicked by her on a
weekly basis (-; Actually, if you train, you will probably be able to keep
up with her.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

From:	Donovan Rebbechi
Subject:	Re: central park, ny
Date:	Sat, 22 Jan 2005 01:28:44 +0000 (UTC)

On 2005-01-21, gym gravity wrote:
> Do they plow it quickly? I'm going to NYC this weekend. Wonder if I
> should bring my running shoes.

You bet. Lance and I will be racing there Sat morning.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

From:	Doug Freese
Subject:	Re: central park, ny
Date:	Sat, 22 Jan 2005 11:51:01 GMT

"Donovan Rebbechi" wrote in message
news:slrncv3b2c.26t.abuse@panix2.panix.com...
> On 2005-01-21, gym gravity wrote:
>> Do they plow it quickly? I'm going to NYC this weekend. Wonder if I
>> should bring my running shoes.
>
> You bet. Lance and I will be racing there Sat morning.

He's going out in this cold? Lance, wussy boy, outside, this I gotta
see. ;)

Up north here it's -4 with a feel of -7 but not much wind to effect wind
chill. This weeks run is lots of uphill(9 up and 5 down) so all will be
warm. by 8 am it may only be -2.

I'd have to run 10 miles just to get loose before racing in these temps.

-DougF

From:	Parker Race
Subject:	Re: central park, ny
Date:	Sat, 22 Jan 2005 16:13:51 GMT

"Doug Freese" wrote in message
news:F6rId.66074$kq2.16412@twister.nyc.rr.com...
>
> "Donovan Rebbechi" wrote in message
> news:slrncv3b2c.26t.abuse@panix2.panix.com...
>> On 2005-01-21, gym gravity wrote:
>>> Do they plow it quickly? I'm going to NYC this weekend. Wonder if I
>>> should bring my running shoes.
>>
>> You bet. Lance and I will be racing there Sat morning.
>
> He's going out in this cold? Lance, wussy boy, outside, this I gotta see.
> ;)
>
> Up north here it's -4 with a feel of -7 but not much wind to effect wind
> chill. This weeks run is lots of uphill(9 up and 5 down) so all will be
> warm. by 8 am it may only be -2.
>
> I'd have to run 10 miles just to get loose before racing in these temps.
>
> -DougF
>

It's supposed to be tropical in NYC this weekend, high of 27 today, 24
tommorow.
I went at 7:30 today, it wasn't pleasant.
I'm not running tommorow, but I am anticipating doing a lot of "cross
training" in the form of shoveling.

From:	Twittering One
Subject:	Re: central park, ny
Date:	23 Jan 2005 00:12:29 GMT

Congrats for just showing and running ~
It'
S cold out there...
_______
Blog, or dog? Who knows.
But if you see my lost pup, please ping me!
http://journals.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo

From:	Donovan Rebbechi
Subject:	Re: central park, ny
Date:	Sat, 22 Jan 2005 19:06:08 +0000 (UTC)

On 2005-01-22, Doug Freese wrote:

> He's going out in this cold? Lance, wussy boy, outside, this I gotta
> see. ;)

I had my doubts too, but he showed up at the starting line, and he's listed
among the finishers.

As for me, my time wasn't great, but the course wasn't easy and I'm happy with
my place. They actually had nice looking trophies, and decent souvenirs (some
merino wool socks instead of those lousy t-shirts) so overall I was pretty
happy with how it all went.

> I'd have to run 10 miles just to get loose before racing in these temps.

Yeah, I've noticed this with training runs. I did a 7 mile training run, and
I was going at something like 9:00 pace at the start. My legs were just
frozen. Took 3 miles or so for me to get going. I made a point of doing a good
warmup before the race.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/