Well, I haven't quite got it worked down to a procedure yet, but
I've sure enough tried a bunch of things and have ended up back
doing certain methods over, just to get the hole finished.

The best drill bit to use is by far the Black&Decker "Glass and
Tile" drill bit from Home Depot. The drill bit looking carbide bits
are great right up 'til their broken. B&D's spade type holds up
better and can be resharpened and get much more metal removed before
it gives up too. The silver colored masonary bits are junk even if
they are the spade type and look like the black colored B&D bits.

So far all I've tried is the 1/8" size.

One trick that works good is to back the saw blade up with a piece
of mild steel. No kidding :) the carbide tipped drills won't drill
into mild steel. Bear down and go for it until it quits cutting
and spins free. ;) A brand new bit will drill 3 or 4 holes like
it knows how, then will start to crap out on ya. :/

Flip the saw blade over and carefully drill from the other side then
using a dremel and a 1/8" carbide bit finish the hole. That works
out pretty good because a guy can always use a chance to "move a
hole" a little bit. ;)

I've used two ways to start a hole, one is to lay a pre-drilled
blade blank over the saw blade and "dimple" the spots. The other
is to use a 3/16" diameter ball grinder on the Dremel and dimple
the spots with that.

I've about wore-out my blue handled "super fine" Eze-Lap "Diamond
Hone & Stone" sharpening the carbide bits.

This isn't a cheap operation, between the carbide drill bits,
carbide Dremel bits, new hacksaw blades and now figuring on using
up a few Eze-Lap's too? Sheesh a guy could have $25 tied up in a
single little knife.

Alvin in AZ

From:	silver at longjohn.com
Subject:	Re: Drilling holes in HSS
Date:	Wed, 19 Jan 2005 23:15:55 +0800

On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 00:28:49 +0000 (UTC), alvinj@XX.com wos bumpin is
gums abowt:

>Well, I haven't quite got it worked down to a procedure yet, but
>I've sure enough tried a bunch of things and have ended up back
>doing certain methods over, just to get the hole finished.
>
>The best drill bit to use is by far the Black&Decker "Glass and
>Tile" drill bit from Home Depot. The drill bit looking carbide bits
>are great right up 'til their broken. B&D's spade type holds up
>better and can be resharpened and get much more metal removed before
>it gives up too. The silver colored masonary bits are junk even if
>they are the spade type and look like the black colored B&D bits.
>
>So far all I've tried is the 1/8" size.
>
>One trick that works good is to back the saw blade up with a piece
>of mild steel. No kidding :) the carbide tipped drills won't drill
>into mild steel. Bear down and go for it until it quits cutting
>and spins free. ;) A brand new bit will drill 3 or 4 holes like
>it knows how, then will start to crap out on ya. :/
>
>Flip the saw blade over and carefully drill from the other side then
>using a dremel and a 1/8" carbide bit finish the hole. That works
>out pretty good because a guy can always use a chance to "move a
>hole" a little bit. ;)
>
>I've used two ways to start a hole, one is to lay a pre-drilled
>blade blank over the saw blade and "dimple" the spots. The other
>is to use a 3/16" diameter ball grinder on the Dremel and dimple
>the spots with that.
>
>I've about wore-out my blue handled "super fine" Eze-Lap "Diamond
>Hone & Stone" sharpening the carbide bits.
>
>This isn't a cheap operation, between the carbide drill bits,
>carbide Dremel bits, new hacksaw blades and now figuring on using
>up a few Eze-Lap's too? Sheesh a guy could have $25 tied up in a
>single little knife.
>
>Alvin in AZ
I have drilled holes in Files and ball bearing races with titanium
carbide bits not the TIN coated but the solid titanium carbide tipped
also not the tungsten carbide ones . " OH" and the the materials were
hard not annealed you had to lean on the pillar drill and there were
lots of sparks and the swarf is "red hot" not "blue" dont get it
inside your clothes I bought a set of five or six bits at a craft show
a couple of years ago for about AUS$65.00 , and I admit I was
sceptical as to what the salesman said and demonstrated but I have to
admit I have been unable to break a bit even when drilled into a real
hardwood amd pulled over at 90 deg's they just cut down sideways to
the wood set the wood alight but dont break or blue they really are
that good.
PS I use the stripped bearing races as spacers on the face plate on my
lathe and had to put a couple of 3/16" mounting bolts for a special
project .
best rgds
silver
*********************************
Remember never drive faster
Than your Guardian angel can Fly.

From:	alvinj at XX.com
Subject:	Re: Drilling holes in HSS
Date:	Wed, 19 Jan 2005 18:57:20 +0000 (UTC)

> I have drilled holes in Files and ball bearing races with titanium
> carbide bits not the TIN coated but the solid titanium carbide tipped
> also not the tungsten carbide ones .

Funny but I didn't doubt the titanium carbide name at all. ;)

I bought a titanium carbide tipped 10" table saw blade a while back
(hadn't used it yet) and it claims a 10 times service life over
tungsten carbide tipped ones. ;) I don't know any particulars about
it tho, like hardness or strength.

> " OH" and the the materials were hard not annealed you had to lean
> on the pillar drill and there were lots of sparks and the swarf is
> "red hot" not "blue" dont get it inside your clothes

Off hand a high-straight-carbon, low-alloy steel file can-be and
usually-is a little harder than any M2. But the low alloy steel
will soften -a lot- when heated where as the M2 HSS won't so much.
(you knowed that already!:)

> I bought a set of five or six bits at a craft show a couple of
> years ago for about AUS$65.00 , and I admit I was sceptical as to
> what the salesman said and demonstrated but I have to admit I have
> been unable to break a bit even when drilled into a real hardwood
> amd pulled over at 90 deg's they just cut down sideways to the
> wood set the wood alight but dont break or blue they really are
> that good.

If you hadn't been skeptical, I'd been asking you what your problem
was. ;)

No kidding I've been wondering about TiC tipped drill bits during
this whole process. The WC is a little too much like ceramic in
strength... a little more strength and the whole process would go
real-smooth I figure. So far, sounds like TiC might be stronger
than that "little bit" needed? :)

> PS I use the stripped bearing races as spacers on the face plate
> on my lathe and had to put a couple of 3/16" mounting bolts for a
> special project . [also a high carbon low alloy steel]
> best rgds
> silver

Thanks for posting that information... I have a new source
of information on this subject and will be asking about it.
Machine Shop class at the community college. ;) Nobody might
know, but they can friggin find out or look silly, right? ;)
I'll ask more than once if needs be.

"direct me toward a source or answer the simple question danggit"

I don't cut much slack to "experts". ;)

Alvin in AZ (100% atheist even)
ps- TiC melts at 3380C, WC melts at 2777C and is 3.6 times as dense
pps- I know that ain't much but it's just a start ;)

From:	Del Cecchi
Subject:	Re: Drilling holes in HSS
Date:	Wed, 19 Jan 2005 14:56:54 -0600

alvinj@XX.com wrote:
>>I have drilled holes in Files and ball bearing races with titanium
>>carbide bits not the TIN coated but the solid titanium carbide tipped
>>also not the tungsten carbide ones .
>
>
> Funny but I didn't doubt the titanium carbide name at all. ;)
>
> I bought a titanium carbide tipped 10" table saw blade a while back
> (hadn't used it yet) and it claims a 10 times service life over
> tungsten carbide tipped ones. ;) I don't know any particulars about
> it tho, like hardness or strength.
>
>
>>" OH" and the the materials were hard not annealed you had to lean
>>on the pillar drill and there were lots of sparks and the swarf is
>>"red hot" not "blue" dont get it inside your clothes
>
>
> Off hand a high-straight-carbon, low-alloy steel file can-be and
> usually-is a little harder than any M2. But the low alloy steel
> will soften -a lot- when heated where as the M2 HSS won't so much.
> (you knowed that already!:)
>
>
>>I bought a set of five or six bits at a craft show a couple of
>>years ago for about AUS$65.00 , and I admit I was sceptical as to
>>what the salesman said and demonstrated but I have to admit I have
>>been unable to break a bit even when drilled into a real hardwood
>>amd pulled over at 90 deg's they just cut down sideways to the
>>wood set the wood alight but dont break or blue they really are
>>that good.
>
>
> If you hadn't been skeptical, I'd been asking you what your problem
> was. ;)
>
> No kidding I've been wondering about TiC tipped drill bits during
> this whole process. The WC is a little too much like ceramic in
> strength... a little more strength and the whole process would go
> real-smooth I figure. So far, sounds like TiC might be stronger
> than that "little bit" needed? :)
>
>
>>PS I use the stripped bearing races as spacers on the face plate
>>on my lathe and had to put a couple of 3/16" mounting bolts for a
>>special project . [also a high carbon low alloy steel]
>>best rgds
>>silver
>
>
> Thanks for posting that information... I have a new source
> of information on this subject and will be asking about it.
> Machine Shop class at the community college. ;) Nobody might
> know, but they can friggin find out or look silly, right? ;)
> I'll ask more than once if needs be.
>
> "direct me toward a source or answer the simple question danggit"
>
> I don't cut much slack to "experts". ;)
>
> Alvin in AZ (100% atheist even)
> ps- TiC melts at 3380C, WC melts at 2777C and is 3.6 times as dense
> pps- I know that ain't much but it's just a start ;)

A couple more possibilities that I just thought of.

We used to, back when I worked with Physical Electronics in school,
drill holes in hard brittle stuff by using a sandblast approach. I
think it was called "airbrasive" and basically shot a fine stream of
abrasive powder. Would cut holes in Pyrex Bell Jar glass. Just googled
and they are still around. http://www.airbrasive.net/

Second thing I remember used Ultrasonic vibrations with an abrasive
slurry for cutting. Googled on ultrasonic drilling and got a bunch of
hits, including http://www.valleydesign.com/Drilling.htm
or http://www.nasatech.com/spinoff/spinoff2001/er4.html

Or, I wonder what used CO2 lasers cost? :-)
http://epdwww.engr.wisc.edu/onsite/courses/mip01.lasso

From:	williamhenry
Subject:	Re: Drilling holes in HSS
Date:	Mon, 17 Jan 2005 17:25:07 -0600

we drill hss all the time at work we use carbide end mills
in Bridgeport milling machines, a real steady drill press and drill vise
should make short work of it as well, the also make regular style drill bits
that are carbide , not the masonry type, we buy from MSC , for a 1/8 you
would turn that sucker about 4000 rpm minimum

From:	alvinj at XX.com
Subject:	Re: Drilling holes in HSS
Date:	Tue, 18 Jan 2005 16:14:50 +0000 (UTC)

williamhenry wrote:
> we drill hss all the time at work we use carbide end mills
> in Bridgeport milling machines...

Cool. :)
How hard is the HSS you're drilling there?

Got an M2 HSS knife yet, WH? ;)

> ...a real steady drill press and drill vise should make short work
> of it as well, the also make regular style drill bits that are
> carbide , not the masonry type, we buy from MSC , for a 1/8 you
> would turn that sucker about 4000 rpm minimum

Hmmm... been using 1200rpm... I have an old sorry, single-reduction
drill that's 2300 rpm, I'll try it next time. Right now I have at
least 5 HSS knife blanks drilled and ready for wood, PU-glue and 16
penny finishing nails. ;)

Finally got around to looking in the MSC catalog. :)

I see some spade-type solid-carbide drills for metal... I need to
try making one of those out of a broken solid-carbide dremel bit. :)

Have you got me figured yet? :)
I'm more interested in the experimenting than the objective. :/

Alvin in AZ

From:	williamhenry
Subject:	Re: Drilling holes in HSS
Date:	Tue, 18 Jan 2005 17:45:46 -0600

most of the stuff we drill is off the shelf lathe tool bits for custom
machine of a customers, several different options for ya though

you could use a piece of carbide drill rod to anneal spots in your knives ,
then a regular cobalt drill will go right through them,

experimenting is cool

From:	alvinj at XX.com
Subject:	Re: Drilling holes in HSS
Date:	Wed, 19 Jan 2005 08:05:33 +0000 (UTC)

williamhenry wrote:
> most of the stuff we drill is off the shelf lathe tool bits for
> custom machine of a customers, several different options for ya
> though

Have I got this right?
You drill holes in lathe bits?
If so, what in the world for? ;)

> you could use a piece of carbide drill rod to anneal spots in your
> knives , then a regular cobalt drill will go right through them,

Have you done that to 65hrc M2 HSS before?

> experimenting is cool

Sure enough. :)

Alvin in AZ

From:	williamhenry
Subject:	Re: Drilling holes in HSS
Date:	Wed, 19 Jan 2005 17:38:53 -0600

we have a customer that uses them in his converting tape business
he goes right thought them , we use 1/2 x 3/4 lathe bits and drill through
them with 5/16 carbide drills , I believe the hss is Cleveland momax and the
drills come from micro 100 it usually ends up with 7-9 holes per drill
bit, , I think the lathe bits are 58-60 Rockwell c
I will check tomorrow

From:	A.T. Barr
Subject:	Re: Drilling holes in HSS
Date:	Sun, 16 Jan 2005 21:40:48 -0500

Have you tried a "hi-roc" drill bit?

A.T.

P.S. Alvin email me.

--
"Don't you buy no ugly knife"
http://www.customknives.com

wrote in message news:csf0s1$csg$1@reader2.panix.com...
> Well, I haven't quite got it worked down to a procedure yet, but
> I've sure enough tried a bunch of things and have ended up back
> doing certain methods over, just to get the hole finished.
>
> The best drill bit to use is by far the Black&Decker "Glass and
> Tile" drill bit from Home Depot. The drill bit looking carbide bits
> are great right up 'til their broken. B&D's spade type holds up
> better and can be resharpened and get much more metal removed before
> it gives up too. The silver colored masonary bits are junk even if
> they are the spade type and look like the black colored B&D bits.
>
> So far all I've tried is the 1/8" size.
>
> One trick that works good is to back the saw blade up with a piece
> of mild steel. No kidding :) the carbide tipped drills won't drill
> into mild steel. Bear down and go for it until it quits cutting
> and spins free. ;) A brand new bit will drill 3 or 4 holes like
> it knows how, then will start to crap out on ya. :/
>
> Flip the saw blade over and carefully drill from the other side then
> using a dremel and a 1/8" carbide bit finish the hole. That works
> out pretty good because a guy can always use a chance to "move a
> hole" a little bit. ;)
>
> I've used two ways to start a hole, one is to lay a pre-drilled
> blade blank over the saw blade and "dimple" the spots. The other
> is to use a 3/16" diameter ball grinder on the Dremel and dimple
> the spots with that.
>
> I've about wore-out my blue handled "super fine" Eze-Lap "Diamond
> Hone & Stone" sharpening the carbide bits.
>
> This isn't a cheap operation, between the carbide drill bits,
> carbide Dremel bits, new hacksaw blades and now figuring on using
> up a few Eze-Lap's too? Sheesh a guy could have $25 tied up in a
> single little knife.
>
> Alvin in AZ

From:	del cecchi
Subject:	Re: Drilling holes in HSS
Date:	Sun, 16 Jan 2005 19:04:12 -0600

wrote in message news:csf0s1$csg$1@reader2.panix.com...
> Well, I haven't quite got it worked down to a procedure yet, but
> I've sure enough tried a bunch of things and have ended up back
> doing certain methods over, just to get the hole finished.
>
> The best drill bit to use is by far the Black&Decker "Glass and
> Tile" drill bit from Home Depot. The drill bit looking carbide bits
> are great right up 'til their broken. B&D's spade type holds up
> better and can be resharpened and get much more metal removed before
> it gives up too. The silver colored masonary bits are junk even if
> they are the spade type and look like the black colored B&D bits.
>
> So far all I've tried is the 1/8" size.
>
> One trick that works good is to back the saw blade up with a piece
> of mild steel. No kidding :) the carbide tipped drills won't drill
> into mild steel. Bear down and go for it until it quits cutting
> and spins free. ;) A brand new bit will drill 3 or 4 holes like
> it knows how, then will start to crap out on ya. :/
>
> Flip the saw blade over and carefully drill from the other side then
> using a dremel and a 1/8" carbide bit finish the hole. That works
> out pretty good because a guy can always use a chance to "move a
> hole" a little bit. ;)
>
> I've used two ways to start a hole, one is to lay a pre-drilled
> blade blank over the saw blade and "dimple" the spots. The other
> is to use a 3/16" diameter ball grinder on the Dremel and dimple
> the spots with that.
>
> I've about wore-out my blue handled "super fine" Eze-Lap "Diamond
> Hone & Stone" sharpening the carbide bits.
>
> This isn't a cheap operation, between the carbide drill bits,
> carbide Dremel bits, new hacksaw blades and now figuring on using
> up a few Eze-Lap's too? Sheesh a guy could have $25 tied up in a
> single little knife.
>
> Alvin in AZ

Perhaps you already tried something like this, but a couple ideas.

1. How would the carbide slurry grinding trick with brass rod trick
work?

2. Electric Discharge Machining. I bet it wouldn't be too hard to put
together a homebrew one of those. Time for me to do some research.

del cecchi

From:	alvinj at XX.com
Subject:	Re: Drilling holes in HSS
Date:	Mon, 17 Jan 2005 16:53:53 +0000 (UTC)

> Perhaps you already tried something like this, but a couple ideas.

Hadn't ever tried either one actually. :/

> 1. How would the carbide slurry grinding trick with brass rod
> trick work?

That would prob'ly work but I don't have a drill press.

> 2. Electric Discharge Machining. I bet it wouldn't be too hard
> to put together a homebrew one of those. Time for me to do some
> research.
> del cecchi

Oooo... another good idea. :) Way back when I was on r.c.m there
was always talk of a homemade EDM for various projects. I didn't
pay attention tho. :/

Alvin in AZ
ps- wasn't but a couple months ago I turned down a free self
cleaning oven :)

From:	Ken Vale
Subject:	Re: Drilling holes in HSS
Date:	Mon, 17 Jan 2005 22:19:30 -0500

alvinj@XX.com wrote:
> Well, I haven't quite got it worked down to a procedure yet, but
> I've sure enough tried a bunch of things and have ended up back
> doing certain methods over, just to get the hole finished.
>
>
> Alvin in AZ

Are you drilling in hard or soft material? (I know you usually work with
all-hard power hacksaw blades).
Ken

From:	alvinj at XX.com
Subject:	Re: Drilling holes in HSS
Date:	Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:53:27 +0000 (UTC)

Ken Vale wrote:
> alvinj@XX.com wrote:
> > Well, I haven't quite got it worked down to a procedure yet, but
> > I've sure enough tried a bunch of things and have ended up back
> > doing certain methods over, just to get the hole finished.

> Are you drilling in hard or soft material? (I know you usually
> work with all-hard power hacksaw blades).
> Ken

The range on the hard section of a power hacksaw blade is 63 to
65hrc and Chas' cold saw material was prob'ly 70hrc and it drilled
easier. I suppose it had something to do with how those rather
crummy spade type drill bits won't drill into mild steel "at all"?

The EDM idea is worth looking into for-sure and I'll soon have an
oportunity to learn details about that process too. :)

Kent at Kent's-Tools wanted me to try a couple carbide tipped
-metal drilling bits- and they worked pretty good but the spade
type removed more material in the long run (before failure) and
are easier to resharpen in the meantime.

Kent's metal drilling bits I tried were made in the US with two
straight flutes (~$5 each), I believe the German made ones from
Ace Hardware (~$7) have got them beat tho (twisted flutes).

The best new trick is the Eze-Lap and about 4x magnification, which
needs the object only about 4" from from the eyes. :)

Mine are cheaper made, but have glass lenses and were given to me
about 15 years ago and never really used them much until this.
They were old suckers when I got 'em. ;) With the normal +1.25
reading glasses I wear while doing this sort of work anymore;) and
the about +3.00(?) of the other rig... ;)

http://www.brownells.com ...search for number 255-000-000

That rig (plus the Eze-Lap) and the backing up the blade with mild
steel (instead of hickory) has made a major step forward but it's
still got a lot of room for improvement. :)

--------------

While I'm at it- the 4+1/2" Norzon-Plus (1/4") depressed-center
wheels from Home Depot are the best to be had too. Weird but true,
at least in-my-experience (IME) so far.

I built a "mounted point dresser" looking thing for dressing the
little hand grinders' wheels. Not a must really, but sure as heck
an improvement tho. :)

Also at this point I figure a guy could make a pretty good looking
"using" HSS knife blade with just some careful final grinding using
only the little hand grinder... no real need for the other grinders
I have, except for cosmetic reasons.

Alvin in AZ

From:	Del Cecchi
Subject:	Re: Drilling holes in HSS
Date:	Tue, 18 Jan 2005 09:43:02 -0600

alvinj@XX.com wrote:
> Ken Vale wrote:
>
>>alvinj@XX.com wrote:
>>
>>>Well, I haven't quite got it worked down to a procedure yet, but
>>>I've sure enough tried a bunch of things and have ended up back
>>>doing certain methods over, just to get the hole finished.
>
>
>>Are you drilling in hard or soft material? (I know you usually
>>work with all-hard power hacksaw blades).
>>Ken
>
>
> The range on the hard section of a power hacksaw blade is 63 to
> 65hrc and Chas' cold saw material was prob'ly 70hrc and it drilled
> easier. I suppose it had something to do with how those rather
> crummy spade type drill bits won't drill into mild steel "at all"?
>
> The EDM idea is worth looking into for-sure and I'll soon have an
> oportunity to learn details about that process too. :)
>
> Kent at Kent's-Tools wanted me to try a couple carbide tipped
> -metal drilling bits- and they worked pretty good but the spade
> type removed more material in the long run (before failure) and
> are easier to resharpen in the meantime.
>
> Kent's metal drilling bits I tried were made in the US with two
> straight flutes (~$5 each), I believe the German made ones from
> Ace Hardware (~$7) have got them beat tho (twisted flutes).
>
> The best new trick is the Eze-Lap and about 4x magnification, which
> needs the object only about 4" from from the eyes. :)
>
> Mine are cheaper made, but have glass lenses and were given to me
> about 15 years ago and never really used them much until this.
> They were old suckers when I got 'em. ;) With the normal +1.25
> reading glasses I wear while doing this sort of work anymore;) and
> the about +3.00(?) of the other rig... ;)
>
> http://www.brownells.com ...search for number 255-000-000
>
> That rig (plus the Eze-Lap) and the backing up the blade with mild
> steel (instead of hickory) has made a major step forward but it's
> still got a lot of room for improvement. :)
>
> --------------
>
> While I'm at it- the 4+1/2" Norzon-Plus (1/4") depressed-center
> wheels from Home Depot are the best to be had too. Weird but true,
> at least in-my-experience (IME) so far.
>
> I built a "mounted point dresser" looking thing for dressing the
> little hand grinders' wheels. Not a must really, but sure as heck
> an improvement tho. :)
>
> Also at this point I figure a guy could make a pretty good looking
> "using" HSS knife blade with just some careful final grinding using
> only the little hand grinder... no real need for the other grinders
> I have, except for cosmetic reasons.
>
> Alvin in AZ

Let me confirm my understanding. All I need to do to make a usable
knife is to get me one of those starrett red stripe blades, draw the
ouline with a sharpie pen and start grinding with my dewalt 4.5" angle
grinder? Then attach some wood or something around the tang to make a
handle, and I'm done? No heat treating, no nothing?

I notice the saw blades come in .062 and .100 thickness. Any
suggestions as to how to decide? To get the thick blade it looked like
one had to buy a longer, more expensive blade.

I'm thinking about how to attach the handle without drilling :-)

Del Cecchi

From:	alvinj at XX.com
Subject:	Re: Drilling holes in HSS
Date:	Wed, 19 Jan 2005 08:01:55 +0000 (UTC)

> Let me confirm my understanding. All I need to do to make a usable
> knife is to get me one of those starrett red stripe blades, draw the
> ouline with a sharpie pen and start grinding with my dewalt 4.5" angle
> grinder? Then attach some wood or something around the tang to make a
> handle, and I'm done? No heat treating, no nothing?

Sounds too good to be true huh? ;)

> I notice the saw blades come in .062 and .100 thickness. Any
> suggestions as to how to decide? To get the thick blade it looked
> like one had to buy a longer, more expensive blade.

I don't know what to tell you about thickness. :/
Maybe if we discussed what you're planning to use it for?
The thicker they are the more work they take?

> I'm thinking about how to attach the handle without drilling :-)
> Del Cecchi

My first idea was to avoid drilling too...
http://www.panix.com/~alvinj/failedHSS.jpg
Fats(?) softened the cheap epoxy in ~23 years,
I didn't grind the surface rough on the tang either. :/

http://www.panix.com/~alvinj/2HSS.jpg
(after repair and re-grinding)

The other knife is mine, it's -final-edge-angle is about 10 degrees
(that's a 5 degree honing angle) and a straight razor is about 17
degrees (8+1/2 degree honing angle).

What do you think of that? ;)

Every knife knut needs to have at least one hard-HSS-knife. ;)

Skinned a lot of coyotes with that knife back in the "fur" days. :)

http://www.panix.com/~alvinj/hth4hss.jpg
(hidden tang handle for HSS)
http://www.panix.com/~alvinj/firstknifeL.jpg

All those are 3/8" thick black-paper-micarta ...done 'em in loud
multi-colored wood-micarta too. ;) Planning some in canvas-micarta
soon.

I used a large horizontal milling machine with 3/4"x 6" milling
cutter for the first few knives then switched to a router with a
3/4" "square groove" router bit and use it upside down with a
homemade "fence" for a guide.

(for a 1/6" thick blade, set the router to cut 1/32" deep;)

Tried one using that method with maple, back in the early 80's the
maple warped and broke loose before I got around to shaping it...
never tried it again.

I figure a guy could cut grooves into the tang with a cut-off wheel
and use lots of small pins and make it hold up good enough?
Thought of it, just never tried it yet. :)

Alvin in AZ

From:	Del Cecchi
Subject:	Re: Drilling holes in HSS
Date:	Wed, 19 Jan 2005 13:02:25 -0600

alvinj@XX.com wrote:
>
>
>>Let me confirm my understanding. All I need to do to make a usable
>>knife is to get me one of those starrett red stripe blades, draw the
>>ouline with a sharpie pen and start grinding with my dewalt 4.5" angle
>>grinder? Then attach some wood or something around the tang to make a
>>handle, and I'm done? No heat treating, no nothing?
>
>
> Sounds too good to be true huh? ;)

Almost. Is it true? I guess if it can saw steel it must be pretty hard
already.
>
>
>>I notice the saw blades come in .062 and .100 thickness. Any
>>suggestions as to how to decide? To get the thick blade it looked
>>like one had to buy a longer, more expensive blade.
>
>
> I don't know what to tell you about thickness. :/
> Maybe if we discussed what you're planning to use it for?
> The thicker they are the more work they take?

How flexible is the .062? Too flexible seems like a bad idea. I guess
I ought to measure the thickness of a kitchen chef's knife to get an
idea about thickness.
>
>
>>I'm thinking about how to attach the handle without drilling :-)
>>Del Cecchi
>
>
> My first idea was to avoid drilling too...
> http://www.panix.com/~alvinj/failedHSS.jpg
> Fats(?) softened the cheap epoxy in ~23 years,
> I didn't grind the surface rough on the tang either. :/

In 23 years my concerns might be other things than my knife handle. :-(
I'll be 80+
>
> http://www.panix.com/~alvinj/2HSS.jpg
> (after repair and re-grinding)
>
> The other knife is mine, it's -final-edge-angle is about 10 degrees
> (that's a 5 degree honing angle) and a straight razor is about 17
> degrees (8+1/2 degree honing angle).
>
> What do you think of that? ;)
>
> Every knife knut needs to have at least one hard-HSS-knife. ;)

sounds good to me
>
> Skinned a lot of coyotes with that knife back in the "fur" days. :)
>
> http://www.panix.com/~alvinj/hth4hss.jpg
> (hidden tang handle for HSS)
> http://www.panix.com/~alvinj/firstknifeL.jpg
>
> All those are 3/8" thick black-paper-micarta ...done 'em in loud
> multi-colored wood-micarta too. ;) Planning some in canvas-micarta
> soon.
>
> I used a large horizontal milling machine with 3/4"x 6" milling
> cutter for the first few knives then switched to a router with a
> 3/4" "square groove" router bit and use it upside down with a
> homemade "fence" for a guide.
>
> (for a 1/6" thick blade, set the router to cut 1/32" deep;)
>
> Tried one using that method with maple, back in the early 80's the
> maple warped and broke loose before I got around to shaping it...
> never tried it again.
>
> I figure a guy could cut grooves into the tang with a cut-off wheel
> and use lots of small pins and make it hold up good enough?
> Thought of it, just never tried it yet. :)
>
> Alvin in AZ
Let's say I wanted to make something that looked sort of like this (but
skip the part about kutting kindling).
http://www.boundarywaterscatalog.com/browse.cfm/4,2037.html

Or maybe a fillet knife that would get through a stringer of fish
without needing to be sharpened.

del

From:	alvinj at XX.com
Subject:	Re: Drilling holes in HSS
Date:	Wed, 19 Jan 2005 20:55:15 +0000 (UTC)

> >

> >>Let me confirm my understanding.
> >>All I need to do to make a usable knife is to get me one of
> >>those starrett red stripe blades,...

Yes and there are many others out there that might be long out of
production but still just as good. Try filing a notch into the back
of the hacksaw blade before making a knife from any un-known saw
blades.

Use one of your more wornout files for two reasons, one- the test
will be more obvious, the other- "no use messing up a good file for
no good reason". ;)

> >>draw the ouline with a sharpie pen and start grinding with my
> >>dewalt 4.5" angle grinder?

Yes, but I prefer my General Tools "carbide tipped scribe" the paint
will scource etc and the sharpy's ink with it. ;)

Sharpen your carbide tipped scribe (when needed) on a diamond hone,
a spyderco ceramic is supposed to cut it too, but is slow as
molassas. ;)

Home Depot, Norzon-Plus depressed center wheel is the best I've used
so far out of at least a half dozen different ones. Also the Norton
cut-off wheels are what I found to be best too.
(the others are a false economy)

> >>Then attach some wood or something around the tang to make a
> >>handle, and I'm done? No heat treating, no nothing?

Yes, as a matter of fact you prob'ly can't draw the temper on the
stuff if you wanted to. Holding M2 at 1200F (750F glows in the
dark) for 40 hours draws it down to ~45hrc (normal spring hardness).

> > Sounds too good to be true huh? ;)
> Almost. Is it true?

Yes.

> I guess if it can saw steel it must be pretty hard already.

Doggonit I guess my post wasn't "new and improved" after all. ;)
I had more details about all that in the original. ;)

A "hard back" hacksaw blade is the same hardness all the way from
the tips of the teeth to the back. :) Cool huh? :)

An HSS hacksaw blade (or just about anything) will out cut carbon
steel (at a point or two higher hardenss even) by about 7 times
(claimed by industry).

I drew the hardness on a straight high carbon steel hand hacksaw
blade to get a comparison of my own heat treated and cold treated
~66hrc carbon steel knife blades to the knife magazines "58hrc is
about right for knives" bullshit. The ~65hrc+ blade out cut the
58-59hrc one by at least 4 times.

Not being into statistics is that a 28 times difference? ;)

> >>I notice the saw blades come in .062 and .100 thickness. Any
> >>suggestions as to how to decide? To get the thick blade it
> >>looked like one had to buy a longer, more expensive blade.
> > I don't know what to tell you about thickness. :/
> > Maybe if we discussed what you're planning to use it for?
> > The thicker they are the more work they take?

> How flexible is the .062? Too flexible seems like a bad idea. I
> guess I ought to measure the thickness of a kitchen chef's knife
> to get an idea about thickness.

For sure! :) "Stiffness" -when measured by machine- is about the
same for all steels. :)

So compare away. :)

After grinding they are more flexible, more ginding more flexible.

Stiffness -when measured by feel- can fool the heck out of you tho.
What's felt by-hand as one steel being less stiff than another is
really the "softer" steel's lower elastic limit. You aren't going
to be reaching that so you won't be fooled in this case.

The elastic limit is reached when... the steel snaps in two or...
stays bent after release of stress or... some of both. :)

Otherwise they are the same stiffness up to that point. Weird but
true. :/

> >>I'm thinking about how to attach the handle without drilling :-)
> >>Del Cecchi
> > My first idea was to avoid drilling too...
> > http://www.panix.com/~alvinj/failedHSS.jpg
> > Fats(?) softened the cheap epoxy in ~23 years,
> > I didn't grind the surface rough on the tang either. :/

> In 23 years my concerns might be other things than my knife
> handle. :-( I'll be 80+

I believe, but don't know-> it's worse than that. ;)

I used the junkyest epoxy and didn't prepare the tang or slabs for
longevity... it was a test to see how it'd hold up... no kidding. :)

> > (that's a 5 degree honing angle) and a straight razor [has about]
> > (8+1/2 degree honing angle).
> > What do you think of that? ;)
> > Every knife knut needs to have at least one hard-HSS-knife. ;)
> sounds good to me

"a knife is a wedge" -long lost r.k'er

> Let's say I wanted to make something that looked sort of like this
> (but skip the part about kutting kindling).
> http://www.boundarywaterscatalog.com/browse.cfm/4,2037.html

I'll check it out as soon as I can. :)

> Or maybe a fillet knife that would get through a stringer of fish
> without needing to be sharpened.
> del

Rust is always brought up as a need for (soft) stainless steel (it
can't help being soft, its not formulated for high hardness). HSS
will rust to beat heck but doesn't tarnish worth anything. The
coyboys and the one butcher I made a test knife for never get -any-
rust or tarnish with HSS.

I have -no- experience with fillet knives, fish oil, water-side-use
etc! :/

Go for it and tell us how it turns out, ok? :)

Please no matter how much I like it...don't blow smoke up my butt
about how the HSS knife performs, be critical as you can be. ;)

http://www.panix.com/~alvinj/HSSboning1.jpg

I'm a lot farther along than that, got 'em drilled and hollow ground
real thin, actually the blades might be too flexible for boning? :/

The point is tho, they are flexible as anything. :)

Whether they turn out to be any good for boning might be in the
mind of the user. Some might hate 'em and some might like 'em. :)

It's all good, no matter what. :)

Alvin in AZ
ps- the boning knives'saw blade? ...collected it in the mid 70's :)

From:	Chas
Subject:	Re: Drilling holes in HSS
Date:	Tue, 18 Jan 2005 08:48:37 -0700

"Del Cecchi" wrote
> I'm thinking about how to attach the handle without drilling :-)

Notch the tang and inlet it into the scale material; close the scales around
it.

Chas