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 | | From: | Steve at OutdoorFrontiers | | Subject: | A possibly unanswerable question? | | Date: | Tue, 18 Jan 2005 16:54:24 -0600 |
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 | Hi Guys,
On another site I frequent, someone asked the following question:
"After shooting certain rifles over the years, it has become clear that each
gun likes a certain type of bullet better than others.
That said, brings this question: on the following calibers, which GRAIN
bullet seems to shoot the best, or is listed to be the most accurately
matched weight bullet for each caliber/rifle?
..30-06, 7MM Rem Mag, .300 WSM, and .270 WSM.
Keep in mind that this is for hunting situations.
I replied that if trying to achieve maximum accuracy, that you cannot
reliably say that "165 grain (or pick a number) bullets will shoot the best
in all 30-06 rifles." I then proceed to tell him that you could take two
rifles with consecutive serial numbers and one would prefer Type A ammo,
while the other would shoot better with Type B.
This answer was evidently not what he wanted to hear and keeps on going on
and on and on when others tell him basically the same thing that I did.
Is there any source of information that anyone knows of that will answer his
question, one way or the other?
Thanks
--
Steve @ OutdoorFrontiers
http://www.outdoorfrontiers.com
G & S Guide Service and Custom Rods
http://www.herefishyfishy.com
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| | From: | Rick Courtright | | Subject: | Re: A possibly unanswerable question? | | Date: | Fri, 21 Jan 2005 09:20:07 -0800 |
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| "Steve @ OutdoorFrontiers" wrote:
> Is there any source of information that anyone knows of that will answer his
> question, one way or the other?
Hi,
If I've learned anything in life, it's that the more one learns about a
subject, the less likely it is to have black and white answers to
questions concerning it! Or as a favorite professor liked to tell us
back in the dark ages when I was going to college, "You find the answer
to one question and it poses two more!"
The fellow you were trying to talk to probably doesn't realize the
vagaries of why one gun shoots a particular bullet or load well and
another "identical" one doesn't, but anyone who's loaded and shot much
understands it happens. Why? I like to think of it as a harmonics
problem similar to a stringed musical instrument: all the components
work together in such a way that each individual instrument must be
tuned slightly differently. If we had a way to analyze each gun (forget
the cost!), we could eliminate the variables and they'd all shoot the
same!
People tend to hear and believe what they want to (especially when
sitting on barstools or in front of keyboards!), and rational argument
won't change a lot of their thinking. I got in a similar discussion
recently with a fellow who was convinced a .30-06 will only shoot
jacketed bullets, 180 gr and above, well. He didn't want to look at the
"just bigger than ragged" hole my '06 can make with 150s (when I'm not
shaking too badly!), or the group I shot with 180 gr cast bullets that
matched what it shoots with jacketed bullets of the same weight. If he
didn't want to believe the targets, what will he believe? I don't know!
Rick
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| | From: | Superposed | | Subject: | Re: A possibly unanswerable question? | | Date: | Sat, 22 Jan 2005 06:02:03 GMT |
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| > Rick Courtright rcourtright@iname.com
SO ASTUTELY OBSERVED:
I like to think of it as a harmonics
problem similar to a stringed musical instrument: all the components
work together in such a way that each individual instrument >>>>
The best analogy that I've ever heard drawn on the subject. Anywhere you have
vibration, you have a harmonic frequencies. Yes... think of the barrel as a
string, it's either vibrating on pitch or off-pitch!
Good one Rick, bravo!
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| | From: | Larry Caldwell | | Subject: | Re: A possibly unanswerable question? | | Date: | Wed, 19 Jan 2005 03:59:46 GMT |
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| In article ,
stevehuber@outdoorfrontiers.com (Steve @ OutdoorFrontiers) says...
> I replied that if trying to achieve maximum accuracy, that you cannot
> reliably say that "165 grain (or pick a number) bullets will shoot the best
> in all 30-06 rifles." I then proceed to tell him that you could take two
> rifles with consecutive serial numbers and one would prefer Type A ammo,
> while the other would shoot better with Type B.
>
> This answer was evidently not what he wanted to hear and keeps on going on
> and on and on when others tell him basically the same thing that I did.
>
> Is there any source of information that anyone knows of that will answer his
> question, one way or the other?
Not a chance. It is a question of resonance. The whole barrel whips
when you fire, and it has to flip back across your aim point just as the
bullet exits the muzzle for maximum accuracy. That is why match barrels
are so heavy. Rifles of the same model can vary a lot, depending on the
materials and machining.
One gun manufacturer (I forget which one) has designed an adjustable
weight that you slide back and forth on the end of the barrel to adjust
the resonance characteristics, allowing you to tune the barrel to the
bullet and powder load. Yes, it works. Hand loaders spend their life
in search of the perfect load for their rifles; that combination of
bullet and powder that shoots a championship pattern and still delivers
the punch to do the job.
Rifles have personalities. Some will take any factory load and drop it
into the same hole all day long, some will change their aim point 6 MOA
in random directions after the first 3 rounds, and some shoot great
using silver bullets over powder manufactured from nitrated old mummy
wrappings. The only way to tell for certain is to test your loads.
Since that can be pleasantly combined with target practice, which you
should do anyway, just about everybody tests their loads and selects the
one that their rifle seems to like.
If your friend is lucky, his rifle will be a steady shooter that likes a
variety of ammunition. If it is not, he needs to know that before he
cripples an animal that he should have dropped.
--
http://home.teleport.com/~larryc
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| | From: | Steve at OutdoorFrontiers | | Subject: | Re: A possibly unanswerable question? | | Date: | Wed, 19 Jan 2005 08:00:26 -0600 |
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| "Gary Kubat" wrote in message news:urjHd.3819
> I'd wager he talks a lot but has an empty freezer.
>
> Gary
LOL, I think that's it in a nutshell.
--
Steve @ OutdoorFrontiers
http://www.outdoorfrontiers.com
G & S Guide Service and Custom Rods
http://www.herefishyfishy.com
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| | From: | Natman | | Subject: | Re: A possibly unanswerable question? | | Date: | Wed, 19 Jan 2005 06:40:33 -0500 |
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| On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 16:54:24 -0600, "Steve @ OutdoorFrontiers"
wrote:
>Hi Guys,
>
>On another site I frequent, someone asked the following question:
>
>"After shooting certain rifles over the years, it has become clear that each
>gun likes a certain type of bullet better than others.
>That said, brings this question: on the following calibers, which GRAIN
>bullet seems to shoot the best, or is listed to be the most accurately
>matched weight bullet for each caliber/rifle?
>
>.30-06, 7MM Rem Mag, .300 WSM, and .270 WSM.
>
>Keep in mind that this is for hunting situations.
>
>
>I replied that if trying to achieve maximum accuracy, that you cannot
>reliably say that "165 grain (or pick a number) bullets will shoot the best
>in all 30-06 rifles." I then proceed to tell him that you could take two
>rifles with consecutive serial numbers and one would prefer Type A ammo,
>while the other would shoot better with Type B.
>
>This answer was evidently not what he wanted to hear and keeps on going on
>and on and on when others tell him basically the same thing that I did.
>
>Is there any source of information that anyone knows of that will answer his
>question, one way or the other?
>
>Thanks
>--
>Steve @ OutdoorFrontiers
>http://www.outdoorfrontiers.com
>G & S Guide Service and Custom Rods
>http://www.herefishyfishy.com
This is a tough one, partly because if there is one thing I have
learned from years of Usenet and forum activity is that some guys ask
questions but refuse to believe anything other than what they already
do believe. In this case it will be tougher because his belief is
*partly* right in that for any given rate of twist there is a bullet
weight that is perfectly matched, at least in theory. In actual
practice of course there is a range of weights that will shoot just as
well. Also probably the most important thing is finding a load that
will exit the muzzle when the barrel is at the peak of a vibration
(standing still) rather than between peaks (moving). This can change
due to many factors, including bedding, load speed, bullet weight,
etc.
Good luck.
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| | From: | Gary Kubat | | Subject: | Re: A possibly unanswerable question? | | Date: | Wed, 19 Jan 2005 06:41:20 -0500 |
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| "Steve @ OutdoorFrontiers" wrote in
message news:exgHd.8523$zN6.2091@fe07.lga...
> Hi Guys,
>
> On another site I frequent, someone asked the following question:
>
> "After shooting certain rifles over the years, it has become clear that
> each
> gun likes a certain type of bullet better than others.
> That said, brings this question: on the following calibers, which GRAIN
> bullet seems to shoot the best, or is listed to be the most accurately
> matched weight bullet for each caliber/rifle?
>
> .30-06, 7MM Rem Mag, .300 WSM, and .270 WSM.
>
> Keep in mind that this is for hunting situations.
>
> I replied that if trying to achieve maximum accuracy, that you cannot
> reliably say that "165 grain (or pick a number) bullets will shoot the
> best
> in all 30-06 rifles." I then proceed to tell him that you could take two
> rifles with consecutive serial numbers and one would prefer Type A ammo,
> while the other would shoot better with Type B.
>
> This answer was evidently not what he wanted to hear and keeps on going on
> and on and on when others tell him basically the same thing that I did.
>
> Is there any source of information that anyone knows of that will answer
> his
> question, one way or the other?
Steve, not sure which reloading manual says it (and they're all back at
Dad's house, 2,000+ miles from here with all the reloading toys), but a
guideline I read once and tend to follow is to start with the bullet with
the best ballistic coefficient for the caliber to achieve the least wind
resistance and best trajectory (the manual didn't equate this to inherent
accuracy though). However, the manual goes on to say that manufacturing
differences in each barrel and chamber will tend to make some bullets more
accurate than others in any given weapon. So many differences come into
play that it's mind boggling (and a fun puzzle to solve) to figure out what
*really* works best in any given rifle. Good example is that Dad and I have
nearly identical .30-06s, both are Remington pumps. His likes 165 gr
Hornady boat tails soft points (1/2 in groups at 100 yards) in just about
any load combination, while the same bullet with various combinations of
powders, primers, brass, seating depth, etc., will get me 2 inch groups at
best. Switch over to hollow point 165s and I cut my groups down to 3/4 inch
at 200 yards, but his spits them all over the paper. Similarly, his shoots
just about any 125 or 150 gr bullet well, while mine doesn't, and mine
shoots 180s, 190s, 200s and 220s very well while his does okay, but not
spectacular.
I guess the point is theory and reality are vastly different (theory being
the same load should shoot about the same in two rifles of the same make,
model, and caliber; reality being that this is far from true). Any hunter
not willing to accept the basic difference between theory and reality will
also have a hard time bagging any game when it comes to the reality of most
hunting situations when compared to the theories of how to best hunt. I'd
wager he talks a lot but has an empty freezer.
Gary
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