Does anyone know what the arms of the Earls of Castle Stewart are?

If they are the legeitmae hiers of Robert II of Scotland there might
be some rememberance of this in their arms?

Certainly a very interesting story!

Simon

>>William Addams Reitwiesner wrote:

>
>Robert II (d. 1390)
>Robert, 1 D Albany (d. 1420)
>Murdach, 2 D Albany (d. 1425)
>Walter, Master of Fife (d. 1425)
>Walter, feudal Baron of Morphie, legitimated in 1472 and 1479 (d. bef
1488)

A. G. Stuart, *Stuarts of Castlestuart* [1854] puts forth the evidence
that
this Walter was actually born legitimate, that this fact was later
suppressed for political expediency, and that the legitimations were
issued
for the purpose of casting doubts on his legitimacy. If Walter was
actually legitimate then, under the terms of the 1373 Act of
Parliament
(Scots), he was, in 1472, third in line to the Scottish Throne. In
1542,
on the death of James V, Walter's great-grandson, the 3rd Baron
Avandale
(later 1st Baron Ochiltree, see below) should have become King of
Scots.

I haven't seen the "Castlestuart" book, so I can't say anything about
its
arguments, but *Burke's Peerage*, 1970 edition, p. 1876, column 2,
footnote, calls the arguments "apparently conclusive".

From:	James Dempster
Subject:	Re: Earls of Castle Stewart
Date:	Fri, 07 Jan 2005 06:58:19 +0000

On 6 Jan 2005 22:28:29 -0800, sawalliss@yahoo.com.au (Xerxes) wrote:

>Does anyone know what the arms of the Earls of Castle Stewart are?
>
>If they are the legeitmae hiers of Robert II of Scotland there might
>be some rememberance of this in their arms?
>
>Certainly a very interesting story!
>
The arms of the Earls of Castle Stewart show their legal (rather than
historical status) and are

Quarterly 1 Or a lion rampant Gules armed and langued Azure within a
double tressure flory-counter-flory of the second (Scotland) 2 Or a
fess chequy Azure and Argent in chief a label of three points Gules
(Stewart of Albany) 3 Argent a saltire between four roses Gules barbed
and seeded Vert Llennox) 4 Or a lion rampant Gules (Fife), the whole
within a bordure compony Argent and Azure.

These arms have been borne in this form since the time of Sir Andrew
Stewart of Avondale (cr Lord Avondale bef 18th October 1456), grandson
of Walter, 2nd Duke of Albany. Sir Andrew's arms can be seen in Colin
Campbell's edition of "The Scots Roll".

James
James Dempster (remove nospam to reply by email)

You know you've had a good night
when you wake up
and someone's outlining you in chalk.

From:	Peter Tilman
Subject:	Re: Earls of Castle Stewart
Date:	Fri, 7 Jan 2005 12:40:00 -0000

"Xerxes" wrote in message
news:8d2ed89e.0501062228.37e01975@posting.google.com...
> Does anyone know what the arms of the Earls of Castle Stewart are?

They are the Earls Castle Stewart (no "of").

From:	Anthony Bryant
Subject:	Re: Earls of Castle Stewart
Date:	Fri, 07 Jan 2005 15:38:06 GMT

Peter Tilman wrote:
> "Xerxes" wrote in message
> news:8d2ed89e.0501062228.37e01975@posting.google.com...
>
>>Does anyone know what the arms of the Earls of Castle Stewart are?
>
>
> They are the Earls Castle Stewart (no "of").

Is that anything like the Dukes York and the Dukes Glouster?

Tony

--

Anthony J. Bryant
Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

Grand Cross, Order of the Laurel:
http://www.cafepress.com/laurelorder

From:	GJKS
Subject:	Re: Earls of Castle Stewart
Date:	Sun, 09 Jan 2005 05:04:09 GMT

"Anthony Bryant" wrote in message
news:y1yDd.68$0R4.32534@monger.newsread.com...
> Peter Tilman wrote:
> > "Xerxes" wrote in message
> > news:8d2ed89e.0501062228.37e01975@posting.google.com...
> >
> >>Does anyone know what the arms of the Earls of Castle Stewart are?
> >
> >
> > They are the Earls Castle Stewart (no "of").
>
> Is that anything like the Dukes York and the Dukes Glouster?
>
> Tony
>
> --
>
> Anthony J. Bryant
> Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com
>
> Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
> http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html
>
> Grand Cross, Order of the Laurel:
> http://www.cafepress.com/laurelorder

<< ... Glouster?>> ??
Did you mean Gloucester?

From:	Anthony Bryant
Subject:	Re: Earls of Castle Stewart
Date:	Sun, 09 Jan 2005 18:31:19 GMT

GJKS wrote:

> << ... Glouster?>> ??
> Did you mean Gloucester?

Ummm... yeah. Gloucester. Sigh. How embarrassing.....

Tony

--

Anthony J. Bryant
Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

Grand Cross, Order of the Laurel:
http://www.cafepress.com/laurelorder

From:	Frank R.A.J. Maloney
Subject:	Re: Earls of Castle Stewart
Date:	Fri, 7 Jan 2005 09:22:02 -0800

"Peter Tilman" wrote in message
news:41de8320$1_2@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com...
> "Xerxes" wrote in message
> news:8d2ed89e.0501062228.37e01975@posting.google.com...
>> Does anyone know what the arms of the Earls of Castle Stewart are?
>
> They are the Earls Castle Stewart (no "of").
>
>

In googling this subject, I found the Castle Stewart Papers, which has this
among other interesting items:

"It may be helpful to deal, at the outset, with the certain problems of
orthography which occur in the Castle Stewart Papers. The family name of the
Earls Castle Stewart is Stuart. Their other titles are: the barony of Castle
Stewart (created 1619); the viscountcy of Castle Stewart (created 1793); and
the viscountcy of Stuart (never actually created, but used from 1829 as the
courtesy title by which the son and heir was known). It appears to have been
the 1st Earl Castle Stewart who adopted for all but one of the family titles
the spelling 'Stewart'; and Stuart and Stewart have co-existed confusingly
in the family ever since."

(Source: http://www.proni.gov.uk/records/private/cas_stew.htm )

--
Frank in Seattle

___________

Frank Richard Aloysius Jude Maloney

"I leave you now in radiant contentment"
-- "Whistling in the Dark"

From:	Tim Powys-Lybbe
Subject:	Re: Earls of Castle Stewart
Date:	Sat, 08 Jan 2005 08:43:06 GMT

In message of 7 Jan, "Frank R.A.J. Maloney" wrote:

> "Peter Tilman" wrote in message
> news:41de8320$1_2@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com...
> > "Xerxes" wrote in message
> > news:8d2ed89e.0501062228.37e01975@posting.google.com...
> >> Does anyone know what the arms of the Earls of Castle Stewart are?
> >
> > They are the Earls Castle Stewart (no "of").
> >
> >
>
> In googling this subject, I found the Castle Stewart Papers, which has this
> among other interesting items:

Complete Peerage has a slightly different story in Vol III pp. 96-99
and Volume XIV pp. 157-158.

> "It may be helpful to deal, at the outset, with the certain problems of
> orthography which occur in the Castle Stewart Papers. The family name of the
> Earls Castle Stewart is Stuart.

For the first 12 barons and the father of the first of these, CP
consistently shows their surname to be Stewart. This is confirmed for
the earlier holders and all their ancestors by The Scots Peerage Vol VI,
pp. 509-519.

Only with the 13th baron and his successors is the surname Stuart
adopted, not to mention a few other hyphenations including Moore for
baron 9 and Richardson for baron 13.

> Their other titles are: the barony of Castle Stewart (created 1619);
> the viscountcy of Castle Stewart (created 1793); and the viscountcy
> of Stuart (never actually created, but used from 1829 as the
> courtesy title by which the son and heir was known). It appears to
> have been the 1st Earl Castle Stewart who adopted for all but one of
> the family titles the spelling 'Stewart'; and Stuart and Stewart
> have co-existed confusingly in the family ever since."

CP comments that the patents for the barony and the viscountcy used the
spelling of "Castle Stuart" and that for the earldom (1800) used "Castle
Stewart". I don't think the holders of those titles have any option but
to use those spellings for them, much as they may change their personal
surnames.

CP agrees that the eldest sons were styled Viscounts Stuart but a
styling is not a peerage title and does not involve any patent, so
there is no harm in any such son using whatever styling he chooses.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

From:	Sandford MacLean
Subject:	Re: Earls of Castle Stewart
Date:	Sat, 08 Jan 2005 14:03:52 GMT

Arms: of present Earl of Castle Stewart.-1 and 4. Gold, a fess per saltire
red and ermine, between in chief a bull's head couped and in base a galley
black (Richardson). 2 and 3. Quarterly; first, Scotland; second, Stewart
with red label of three points in chief 3. Lennox. 4. Fzft. These quarters
within a bordure compony silver and blue. CRESTS: 1. A silver lion rampant
holding a wreath of oak leaves fructed proper, and charged on the shoulder
with a red cross formy (Richardson). 2. A silver unicorn's head, horned gold
(Stewart). SUPPORTERS: Two green dragons (Debrett has sanguine or blood
colour). MOTTO: "Forward."

Kind Regards,
Sandford MacLean

"Xerxes" wrote in message
news:8d2ed89e.0501062228.37e01975@posting.google.com...
> Does anyone know what the arms of the Earls of Castle Stewart are?
>
> If they are the legeitmae hiers of Robert II of Scotland there might
> be some rememberance of this in their arms?
>
> Certainly a very interesting story!
>
> Simon
>