I'm not overly familiar with this guy's posting history but I do recognize
his screen name and I don't think he's a nut.

-------------------------------
My e-mail to JREF:

From: Desertphile [e-mail address]
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 10:01 AM
To: randi@randi.org
Subject: Chiropractic and the US$1,000,000 challenge

Greetings. I have [....] in the usenet newsgroup
alt.atheism [et al] who believes Chiropractic is
a valid science. [....] I, and others, said that
since Chiropractic is invalid and pseudoscience,
JREF would indeed test any Chiropracticor who
steps forward and states a Chiropractic claim
and then shows that claim true.

Am I correct? Does Chiropractic qualify for the
JREF challenge?

David Rice

--------------

JREF reply:

Yep. Absolutely.

James Randi.
---

--------------------------------

Robin, if you have any references from peer-reviewed journals showing the
efficacy of chiropractic, could you please send me the cites now?

I am nursing a super-secret a theory of equine chiropractic as follows.

1. The number of testimonials that chiropractic produces "instant" good
results but needs repeat visits at a later date is probably too high to be
explained away by wishful thinking and delusions. Maybe half or so of these
testimonials are delusional but I think some are not.

2. I think there is something about the manipulation that produces an
analgesic effect that manifests in the horse appearing less lame immediately
after the treatment. It might be analogous to acupuncture which has been
shown to have analgesic properties in rigorous studies.

--
love,
la mangosteena

"Creationists are the best evidence we have that there is no intelligent
design." -- Josef Balluch

From:	rsaund at thesaundersgroup.com
Subject:	Re: Purported exchange with James Randi in re chiropractic on a.a.
Date:	20 Jan 2005 18:28:05 -0800

lizzard woman wrote:
> EVER need...
>
>
> "lizzard woman" wrote in message
> news:2uZHd.133626$8l.124674@pd7tw1no...
> |
> | "Robin Ryan" wrote in message
> | news:5%YHd.231341$T02.1756@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> ||
> || "lizzard woman" wrote in message
> || news:TMTHd.130917$Xk.110774@pd7tw3no...
> ||
> || > Robin, if you have any references from peer-reviewed journals
showing
> | the
> || > efficacy of chiropractic, could you please send me the cites
now?
> ||
> || Alright...
> ||
> || Here's the whole chapter:
> || http://www.thesaundersgroup.com/2004_textbook_web/10.pdf
> ||
> || Check out page 252, this is where the theory, research, etc..
discussion
> || is... the refs are at the end.
> |
> |

> |
> | Thanks for this. I skimmed it. My conclusion is you can't skim
this
> | material.
> |
> | I'm going to study it some more and send some email to Randi's
> organization
> | if warranted.
> |
> | Remind me not to even need my coccyx mobilized. Yikes.
> |
> | Thanks so much!
> |
> | sharon
> |

Sharon,

There's one article that I'm thinking of... don't think it's in this
chapter, but it is a "chiropractic vs. PT" study. I'll try to look for
it
tomorrow. It showed that chiropractic was better than PT. But in their
study, chiropractic was manipulation, and "PT" was hot packs,
ultrasound,
generic exercise, and other non-specific nonsense. Do you see the
problem?
It's like saying "medicine" is "amoxicillin". Or "rocks" are "quartz".
Basically, it was a poorly done, biased study. It studied the best
chiropractic has to offer against the worst PT has to offer, then tried
to
conclude that chiro is more efficacious than PT. Chiropractors quote
this
study all the time.

I'm only thinking of it because it DID use the word chiropractic in it,
and
it DID claim to show efficacy compared to another treatment regime. It
was a
randomized trial, IIRC. However, it can be picked apart easily because
of
poor methodology. And I don't think that you're going to get your
million
bucks with one poorly done study. Sorry to disappoint you.

Re: the coccyx mob. You would only want this done if you REALLY needed
it.
This is not a treatment patients tend to request:)

Robin

From:	Robin Ryan
Subject:	Re: Purported exchange with James Randi in re chiropractic on a.a.
Date:	Fri, 21 Jan 2005 01:34:57 GMT

"lizzard woman" wrote in message
news:TMTHd.130917$Xk.110774@pd7tw3no...

> Robin, if you have any references from peer-reviewed journals showing the
> efficacy of chiropractic, could you please send me the cites now?

Alright...

Here's the whole chapter:
http://www.thesaundersgroup.com/2004_textbook_web/10.pdf

Check out page 252, this is where the theory, research, etc.. discussion
is... the refs are at the end.

Robin

From:	lizzard woman
Subject:	Re: Purported exchange with James Randi in re chiropractic on a.a.
Date:	Fri, 21 Jan 2005 02:07:58 GMT

"Robin Ryan" wrote in message
news:5%YHd.231341$T02.1756@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
|
| "lizzard woman" wrote in message
| news:TMTHd.130917$Xk.110774@pd7tw3no...
|
| > Robin, if you have any references from peer-reviewed journals showing
the
| > efficacy of chiropractic, could you please send me the cites now?
|
| Alright...
|
| Here's the whole chapter:
| http://www.thesaundersgroup.com/2004_textbook_web/10.pdf
|
| Check out page 252, this is where the theory, research, etc.. discussion
| is... the refs are at the end.

Thanks for this. I skimmed it. My conclusion is you can't skim this
material.

I'm going to study it some more and send some email to Randi's organization
if warranted.

Remind me not to even need my coccyx mobilized. Yikes.

Thanks so much!

sharon

From:	lizzard woman
Subject:	Re: Purported exchange with James Randi in re chiropractic on a.a.
Date:	Fri, 21 Jan 2005 02:09:23 GMT

EVER need...

"lizzard woman" wrote in message
news:2uZHd.133626$8l.124674@pd7tw1no...
|
| "Robin Ryan" wrote in message
| news:5%YHd.231341$T02.1756@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
||
|| "lizzard woman" wrote in message
|| news:TMTHd.130917$Xk.110774@pd7tw3no...
||
|| > Robin, if you have any references from peer-reviewed journals showing
| the
|| > efficacy of chiropractic, could you please send me the cites now?
||
|| Alright...
||
|| Here's the whole chapter:
|| http://www.thesaundersgroup.com/2004_textbook_web/10.pdf
||
|| Check out page 252, this is where the theory, research, etc.. discussion
|| is... the refs are at the end.
|
|

From:	Robin Ryan
Subject:	Re: Purported exchange with James Randi in re chiropractic on a.a.
Date:	Fri, 21 Jan 2005 01:22:15 GMT

"lizzard woman" wrote in message
news:TMTHd.130917$Xk.110774@pd7tw3no...

>
> Robin, if you have any references from peer-reviewed journals showing the
> efficacy of chiropractic, could you please send me the cites now?
>

I will send you a comprehensive literature review, current as of February
2004, IF YOU WILL STOP using the terms "chiropractic" and "manipulation" as
if they are synonyms. Now Sharon, I've asked nicely more than once, and I'm
startin' to get irritated!!!

Robin

> I am nursing a super-secret a theory of equine chiropractic as follows.
>
> 1. The number of testimonials that chiropractic produces "instant" good
> results but needs repeat visits at a later date is probably too high to be
> explained away by wishful thinking and delusions. Maybe half or so of
> these
> testimonials are delusional but I think some are not.
>

Agree there's enough here that an intelligent person would look deeper.

> 2. I think there is something about the manipulation that produces an
> analgesic effect that manifests in the horse appearing less lame
> immediately
> after the treatment. It might be analogous to acupuncture which has been
> shown to have analgesic properties in rigorous studies.

That's one of the theories. Another theory is that an actual mechanical
correction of a subluxed, or "tilted", joint occurs.

Many more theories abound. Comprehensive literature review will be posted
shortly, after I receive your solemn promise to be more precise with your
terminology. Have to run to my office to get something I forgot anyway, so
will post it from there within an hour or so:)

Robin

From:	lizzard woman
Subject:	Re: Purported exchange with James Randi in re chiropractic on a.a.
Date:	Fri, 21 Jan 2005 01:30:27 GMT

"Robin Ryan" wrote in message
news:bPYHd.231340$T02.44686@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
|
| "lizzard woman" wrote in message
| news:TMTHd.130917$Xk.110774@pd7tw3no...
|
|
|
| >
| > Robin, if you have any references from peer-reviewed journals showing
the
| > efficacy of chiropractic, could you please send me the cites now?
| >
|
| I will send you a comprehensive literature review, current as of February
| 2004, IF YOU WILL STOP using the terms "chiropractic" and "manipulation"
as
| if they are synonyms. Now Sharon, I've asked nicely more than once, and
I'm
| startin' to get irritated!!!

Robin,

I'm sorry. I'm not trying to conflate those two terms. If there is a form
of non-chiropractic manipulation then I'm not aware of it. Do physical
therapists do "manipulation" that isn't chiropractic in nature?

Unless "chiropractic" is the subject of the journal articles, it won't
satisfy the prize requirements. I don't think they will hand out $1 MM for
"non-chiropractic manipulation."

sharon

From:	MissClaireee
Subject:	Re: Purported exchange with James Randi in re chiropractic on a.a.
Date:	22 Jan 2005 07:02:08 -0800

My own personal opinion is I don't know.

I did work for a complete charlatain chiropractor for about 3 months
before I couldn't stand the lying to "patients" anymore...it was really
over the top. I can't say his name bcz he's sue me...he loves money.

However, I suffered a terrible back injury that put me in bed for 2
weeks. A friend of mine insisted I go to Dr. Rumbolt in Knoxville.
Within 2 weeks he had me walking again and I was pain free for over a
year. When the pain came back, he saw me twice and it's still gone
again after 6 months.

Of course, there's the psychosomatic angle here. I had been having
epidurals that didn't work, MRI's that showed nothing wrong, X-rays
that showed nothing wrong. My GP pointed out that stress can cause back
pain. This was happening during the time that both my folks were dying
of different causes and my husband (it was thought) was dying of ALS.
My GP believed that I had been holding it together a bit too well (e.g.
stuffing it all down) and that could be causing the symptoms.

Or it could be that I had soft tissue injury that wouldn't have shown
up as I'd just been lifting lots of stuff for a garage sale to raise
money for a wheelchair accessible van, but the adjustments alleviated
the inflamation. Either way, I felt like a million bucks and I'd still
go again. My motto is "psychosomatic or not, if it works, I'll do it!"
Claire

From:	lizzard woman
Subject:	Re: Purported exchange with James Randi in re chiropractic on a.a.
Date:	Sat, 22 Jan 2005 17:34:09 GMT

"MissClaireee" wrote in message

(snip)

| ... Either way, I felt like a million bucks and I'd still
| go again. My motto is "psychosomatic or not, if it works, I'll do it!"

As I recently learned in the chiropractic thread on a.a., placebo works in
about 30% of people on average. That's a relatively high percentage.

In re equine chiropractic, I thought that that would be good for the $1MM
prize if shown because horses are not subject to the placebo effect.

--
love,
la mangosteena

"The United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian
Religion" -- Treaty of Tripoli, 1797, ratified by Congress

From:	wkambic at vic.com
Subject:	Re: Purported exchange with James Randi in re chiropractic on a.a.
Date:	Sat, 22 Jan 2005 13:33:53 -0500

On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 17:34:09 GMT, "lizzard woman"
wrote:

>"MissClaireee" wrote in message
>
>(snip)
>
>| ... Either way, I felt like a million bucks and I'd still
>| go again. My motto is "psychosomatic or not, if it works, I'll do it!"
>
>
>As I recently learned in the chiropractic thread on a.a., placebo works in
>about 30% of people on average. That's a relatively high percentage.
>
>In re equine chiropractic, I thought that that would be good for the $1MM
>prize if shown because horses are not subject to the placebo effect.

Actually, they are.

It is indirect, in that the human is making the evaluation (both in
diagnosis and post treatment evaluation) and humans are know to see
that which they wish to see, not necessarily what is there. This is
why first party anacdote is such a poor indicator of success.

Indeed, to have a valid test you would need to present a series of
horses for evaluation by a panel of vets, then treat (using a variety
of therapies), then have the results verified by a second panel of
vets. Not a cheap thing to do, what? :-)

Bill Kambic

From:	Terry von Gease
Subject:	Re: Purported exchange with James Randi in re chiropractic on a.a.
Date:	Sat, 22 Jan 2005 10:27:27 -0800

"lizzard woman" wrote in message
news:l8wId.141870$8l.101392@pd7tw1no...
> "MissClaireee" wrote in message
>
> (snip)
>
> | ... Either way, I felt like a million bucks and I'd still
> | go again. My motto is "psychosomatic or not, if it works, I'll do it!"
>
>
> As I recently learned in the chiropractic thread on a.a., placebo works in
> about 30% of people on average. That's a relatively high percentage.
>
> In re equine chiropractic, I thought that that would be good for the $1MM
> prize if shown because horses are not subject to the placebo effect.

A horse might not be directly subject to the wonders of the placebo but the
state of its being is only as interpreted by it's attendents and is not
reported first-hand. That being the effect not only exists but can be
multiplied by the various combinations of wishful thinking and denial almost
universally exhibited by an animal's typical connections.

One does not always have to take the pill themselves in order for a placebo
to function. Witness the many worthless 'Calm-yer-ass-down' nostrums sold
over the counter. You feed the stuff to the horse and then you calm down.
Not to forget blankets and fleecy tack.

--
Terry

You can accomplish more with a smile and a gun
than just a smile.

From:	Robin Ryan
Subject:	Re: Purported exchange with James Randi in re chiropractic on a.a.
Date:	Sat, 22 Jan 2005 17:53:00 GMT

"lizzard woman" wrote in message
news:l8wId.141870$8l.101392@pd7tw1no...
> "MissClaireee" wrote in message
>
> (snip)
>
> | ... Either way, I felt like a million bucks and I'd still
> | go again. My motto is "psychosomatic or not, if it works, I'll do it!"
>
>
> As I recently learned in the chiropractic thread on a.a., placebo works in
> about 30% of people on average. That's a relatively high percentage.
>
> In re equine chiropractic, I thought that that would be good for the $1MM
> prize if shown because horses are not subject to the placebo effect.
>
> --

Find a good equine chiro, fly him/her out to Minnesota, and we can take
before and after shots (to show objectively that the bump disappears after
manipulation). I'd only require 10% of the million dollar prize (as a fee
for letting you use Spice as the subject), and I'd drop that to 8% if the
bump actually disappears!

Just let me know when you want to do this, and I'll make time...

Robin

From:	John Hasler
Subject:	Re: Purported exchange with James Randi in re chiropractic on a.a.
Date:	Sat, 22 Jan 2005 13:09:24 -0600

lizzard woman wrote:
> In re equine chiropractic, I thought that that would be good for the $1MM
> prize if shown because horses are not subject to the placebo effect.

They are subject to the secondary placebo effect, which is more powerful
than the primary one.
--
John Hasler Boarding, Lessons, Training
john@dhh.gt.org Hay, Jumps, Cavallox
Dancing Horse Hill
Elmwood, WI USA