I'd love to get comments on this horse we hope to check out this weekend
in search for a good calm trail horse for my
"husky" husband.
Comments?
Abby

http://horse.classifieds.equine.com/horses/778154.html

From:	Jim Casey
Subject:	Re: comments on horse
Date:	Thu, 20 Jan 2005 10:36:02 -0600

Abby wrote:

> I'd love to get comments on this horse we hope to check out this weekend
> in search for a good calm trail horse for my "husky" husband.
> http://horse.classifieds.equine.com/horses/778154.html

It looks like a horse, but why are they asking a little more than a buck
a pound for a 10-year-old warmblood?

Can someone explain what this means? "Bliss is being sold at the listed
price w/o papers. To obtain the papers please add $300."

- Jim

From:	wkambic at vic.com
Subject:	Re: comments on horse
Date:	Thu, 20 Jan 2005 12:00:56 -0500

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 10:36:02 -0600, Jim Casey
wrote:

>Abby wrote:
>
>> I'd love to get comments on this horse we hope to check out this weekend
>> in search for a good calm trail horse for my "husky" husband.
>> http://horse.classifieds.equine.com/horses/778154.html
>
>It looks like a horse, but why are they asking a little more than a buck
>a pound for a 10-year-old warmblood?
>
>Can someone explain what this means? "Bliss is being sold at the listed
>price w/o papers. To obtain the papers please add $300."

Not really uncommon with registered, non-breeding stock. If the buyer
just wants the horse it's a discount. If you want the "cache'" it
will cost you a bit more.

As an aside, in some breeds there is a brisk trade in "papers." It's
not so common in today's environment (where DNA testing is commonly
available) but still exists.

Bill Kambic

From:	Jim Casey
Subject:	Re: comments on horse
Date:	Thu, 20 Jan 2005 11:25:57 -0600

wkambic@vic.com wrote:

> Not really uncommon with registered, non-breeding stock. If the buyer
> just wants the horse it's a discount. If you want the "cache'" it
> will cost you a bit more.

Would not having the papers mean that you could not show in breed shows,
register the mare's offspring, or resell her as a registered horse? Why
is limiting the use of the horse this way worth $300 to the seller?

BTW, "brood mare" is listed under "disciplines" on the Web site.

- Jim

From:	John Hasler
Subject:	Re: comments on horse
Date:	Thu, 20 Jan 2005 12:05:15 -0600

Jim writes:
> Why is limiting the use of the horse this way worth $300 to the seller?

Many horse traders have a drawer full of papers. They come in handy when
dealing with customers who proclaim contempt for grade horses.
--
John Hasler Boarding, Lessons, Training
john@dhh.gt.org Hay, Jumps, Cavallox
Dancing Horse Hill
Elmwood, WI USA

From:	Jim Casey
Subject:	Re: comments on horse
Date:	Thu, 20 Jan 2005 12:56:51 -0600

John Hasler wrote:

> Many horse traders have a drawer full of papers. They come in handy when
> dealing with customers who proclaim contempt for grade horses.

Are you implying that a seller would try to pass off a ringer? I'm
shocked! Shocked!

I would think that such a practice would be detected in the Web world,
if someone saw the horse they had bought supposedly for sale again.

- Jim

From:	wkambic at vic.com
Subject:	Re: comments on horse
Date:	Thu, 20 Jan 2005 14:45:37 -0500

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 11:25:57 -0600, Jim Casey
wrote:

>wkambic@vic.com wrote:
>
>> Not really uncommon with registered, non-breeding stock. If the buyer
>> just wants the horse it's a discount. If you want the "cache'" it
>> will cost you a bit more.
>
>Would not having the papers mean that you could not show in breed shows,
>register the mare's offspring, or resell her as a registered horse?

Yup.

Why
>is limiting the use of the horse this way worth $300 to the seller?

It's generally a "what the market will bear" question.

>BTW, "brood mare" is listed under "disciplines" on the Web site.

Didn't see that! :-)

IMO this practice does not make a lot of sense and with brood stock
makes no sense, but sometimes the world lacks the order I believe
should exist!!!!! ;-)

Bill Kambic

From:	grosvenr at bga.com
Subject:	Re: comments on horse
Date:	20 Jan 2005 16:14:40 -0800

I don't think she's too heavy in the legs, but I think the price is way
too low, if this is a decent horse. If she's got any training, then
something is wrong. I think she's built downhill and may be prone to
bucking, so ride her like you expect it. Remember, that horses with TB
blood are not the easiest trail horses. I may offend people here, but
often, they are the worst-- often hot, spooky, quick to spook or bucky,
and very fast to ride. I've got a friend with a 16.3 hand TB/QH cross
who can do great dressage and jumping, but unless he's very careful who
he rides with, his horse just loses it. He can be just awful, and I've
seen that with others-- including some we've owned. Not to say you
can't train them, but to say, you better know how to ride to own one
and plan to spend a lot of time doing it.

She is probably going to be a lot of horse. She's big, she's stout, and
she 's cheap. That tells me maybe she's buffaloed some previous owners
and that may be why she's so cheap. Maybe she's partially lame, or she
doesn't stand when you mount, fidgets on trails, kicks, etc. Who knows?
A 10 yo, even a grade horse, with a lot of trail experience at that
size, with training, is worth much more money than that. Papers or no
papers. That $300 for the papers makes it sound like a real horse
trader to me. I'd be highly suspect of papers sold extra like that.
She's either got them or she doesn't. Find out what's going on. Ask a
lot of questions. Do not get your hopes up. Something here is fishy . I
don't think you're going to get an honest answer from this seller.
Horses priced that low can be good horses, but trust only what the
horse tells you. Don't listen to the seller, because he's probably
going to be lying. The price is just too low for a broke horse of that
description. Also, ride this horse first yourself, or bring a
professional with you. If hubster isn't a good rider, do not let him
get on this horse until somebody else who can ride as assessed her. I
don't think she's what she's advertised to be. Don't get your husband
hurt finding out.

My take is if you want to buy a really good trail horse that is
seriously well trained, expect to spend about $5000 to $80000 or more
from a reputable seller. Anything less is going to carry with it a lot
of risk. My own horses, I bought cheap like this, and it ended up fine
in the end, but one of them nearly killed me on the first ride, because
the lying seller forgot to tell me this horse could buck like a rodeo
bronc. And she did--oh and she's 1/2 TB, by the way. Neither of them
were for beginner riders back then. Luckly I could ride, but it would
have been deadly if I couldn't. Remember, it is much harder to train a
solid trail horse than it is an arena horse. There is much more
desensitization that has to be done. Putting a beginner on a horse out
in open land is very high risk.
cg

From:	Ray Keller
Subject:	Re: comments on horse
Date:	Thu, 20 Jan 2005 18:58:35 -0700

wrote in message
news:1106266480.318732.47730@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
snip
>
> My take is if you want to buy a really good trail horse that is
> seriously well trained, expect to spend about $5000 to $80000 or more
> from a reputable seller. Anything less is going to carry with it a lot
> of risk. My own horses, I bought cheap like this, and it ended up fine
> in the end, but one of them nearly killed me on the first ride, because
> the lying seller forgot to tell me this horse could buck like a rodeo
> bronc. And she did--oh and she's 1/2 TB, by the way. Neither of them
> were for beginner riders back then. Luckly I could ride, but it would
> have been deadly if I couldn't. Remember, it is much harder to train a
> solid trail horse than it is an arena horse. There is much more
> desensitization that has to be done. Putting a beginner on a horse out
> in open land is very high risk.
> cg
>

http://www.gentlefamilyhorses.com/hr.htm

From:	Dana Compton
Subject:	Re: comments on horse
Date:	21 Jan 2005 02:46:55 GMT

>
>I don't think she's too heavy in the legs, but I think the price is way

Snip

>too low, if this is a decent horse.
She's big, she's stout, and
she 's cheap. That tells me maybe she's buffaloed some previous owners
and that may be why she's so cheap. Maybe she's partially lame, or she
doesn't stand when you mount, fidgets on trails, kicks, etc. Who knows?
A 10 yo, even a grade horse, with a lot of trail experience at that
size, with training, is worth much more money than that. Papers or no
papers. That $300 for the papers makes it sound like a real horse
trader to me. I'd be highly suspect of papers sold extra like that.
She's either got them or she doesn't. Find out what's going on. Ask a
lot of questions. Do not get your hopes up. Something here is fishy . I
don't think you're going to get an honest answer from this seller.
Horses priced that low can be good horses, but trust only what the
horse tells you. Don't listen to the seller, because he's probably
going to be lying.

What a pissy thing to say. because the horse isn't high dollar the seller is a
liar?

The price is just too low for a broke horse of that
description. Also, ride this horse first yourself, or bring a
professional with you. If hubster isn't a good rider, do not let him
get on this horse until somebody else who can ride as assessed her. I
don't think she's what she's advertised to be. Don't get your husband
hurt finding out.

My take is if you want to buy a really good trail horse that is
seriously well trained, expect to spend about $5000 to $80000 or more
from a reputable seller. Anything less is going to carry with it a lot
of risk. My own horses, I bought cheap like this, and it ended up fine
in the end, but one of them nearly killed me on the first ride, because
the lying seller forgot to tell me this horse could buck like a rodeo
bronc. And she did--oh and she's 1/2 TB, by the way. Neither of them
were for beginner riders back then. Luckly I could ride, but it would
have been deadly if I couldn't. Remember, it is much harder to train a
solid trail horse than it is an arena horse. There is much more
desensitization that has to be done. Putting a beginner on a horse out
in open land is very high risk.
cg

I have had, seen, bought multiple horses under 1500.00. Don't assume a horse
is crap because the price is low. People who have very low incomes (I have been
there, family of 4 living on one income of 30,000.00) who many times own the
off the track TB's( because they were a give a way) think in lower numbers.
1300.00 is a lot of money to most people add 300 for papers and 1600.00 is a
LOT. It's a months salary for a lot of people. I have owned 10 horses and never
paid more than 2250.00 for one and none were lame or flawed.
A horse is only worth what someone is willing to pay but skipping over cheap
horses IMHO is a huge mistake when one is looking for a basic riding horse.

Dana

Azthor - 8 year old Saddlebred gelding
Juan's Magic- 17 year old Thoroughbred gelding

The Urantia Book a Logical/Scientific Christian Book
www.urantia.com

From:	warner1 at ix.netcom.com
Subject:	Re: comments on horse
Date:	21 Jan 2005 19:18:10 -0800

wkambic@vic.com wrote:
> On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 14:33:03 -0600, Jim Casey
> wrote:
>
> >warner1@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> >
> >> Jim Casey wrote:
> >
> >>>I always gave riders a brief drill in such concepts as how to
> >>>... ride under a low-hanging branch.
> >
> >> You mean duck?! People have to be reminded to duck or am I
missing
> >> something?!
> >
> >I have seen IRL the classic Blazing Saddles scene where someone
looking
> >over their shoulder crashes into a branch.
>
> I don't remember this in "Blazing Saddles" but I do remember it from
> "Mask of Zorro." :-) What I do remember from "Blazing Saddles" is
> Sheriff Bart taking himself hostage and Mr. Taggert serving
beans!!!!!
>
> >However, some green riders try to hang off sideways or lie back and
> >manage to fall off.
> >
> >We're talking here about situations where the horse has to lower its

> >head and the tree branches (flexible ones) come to the level of the
> >saddle. The best way to get through those is to put your head next
to
> >the horse's neck and let everything else go where it will when you
do that.
>
> Indeed. The issue is not whether do duck but how to duck without
> either falling off or unbalancing the horse sufficiently so it fall
> over. The technique is not always obvious. :-)
>
> In fact there are a number skills that one needs on the trail but
will
> not learn in a ring, such as how to ride up and down slopes,
selection
> of water crossing points, and when to dismount and walk to give the
> horse a break. They are not "rocket science" but are skills that
need
> to be learned.
>
> Bill Kambic
>
> "I will now read from the book of Mathew, Mark, Luke, and DUCK!"
>
>

LOL! Reminds me of a small child talking, looking back and THUNK!!!
They walked right into a wall, door or edge of the door.

I just thought trail riding was common sense and such matters were
obvious. I use to ride my horse everywhere! Everywhere = woods,
reservoir, down the side of the road to the grocery store, through the
lake (we'd swim together), up and down, over and under, across... you
name it. I'd dismount and walk on occasion, as well, depending on the
surrounding circumstances. Never had any problems. Just all seemed
like common sense to me.

Oops, I better tell my friends who ride with us (on the property), if
and when we go trail riding together, to DUCK, where and how to cross
the creek, how to sit going up and down the slopes/hills, and how to
handle the inevitable trail blocks, etc. !!! It never occured to me to
have to tell them how to do that. (I continually make this mistake: I
believe everyone knows everything that I know, regardless as to how
much or how little.) Facsinating, the things I learn here.
Thanks (to all) for the stories and information.

Ruth W.

From:	wkambic at vic.com
Subject:	Re: comments on horse
Date:	Fri, 21 Jan 2005 22:35:58 -0500

On 21 Jan 2005 19:18:10 -0800, warner1@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>
>
>LOL! Reminds me of a small child talking, looking back and THUNK!!!
>They walked right into a wall, door or edge of the door.
>
>I just thought trail riding was common sense and such matters were
>obvious. I use to ride my horse everywhere! Everywhere = woods,
>reservoir, down the side of the road to the grocery store, through the
>lake (we'd swim together), up and down, over and under, across... you
>name it. I'd dismount and walk on occasion, as well, depending on the
>surrounding circumstances. Never had any problems. Just all seemed
>like common sense to me.

No one ever, on any occasion, gave you any suggestions? ;-)

>Oops, I better tell my friends who ride with us (on the property), if
>and when we go trail riding together, to DUCK, where and how to cross
>the creek, how to sit going up and down the slopes/hills, and how to
>handle the inevitable trail blocks, etc. !!! It never occured to me to
>have to tell them how to do that. (I continually make this mistake: I
>believe everyone knows everything that I know, regardless as to how
>much or how little.) Facsinating, the things I learn here.

Some things are intuitive, some are not. And sometimes you can do
things that are dangerous and get away with it. Sometimes you do
things correctly and it doesn't work out. All this means is that life
is a series of probabilities.

Personally, I always liked to keep the odds on my side. :-)

Bill Kambic

From:	lizzard woman
Subject:	Re: comments on horse
Date:	Sat, 22 Jan 2005 03:50:16 GMT

wrote in message
news:1106363890.817630.67040@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

(snip)

| I just thought trail riding was common sense and such matters were
| obvious. I use to ride my horse everywhere! Everywhere = woods,
| reservoir, down the side of the road to the grocery store, through the
| lake (we'd swim together), up and down, over and under, across... you
| name it. I'd dismount and walk on occasion, as well, depending on the
| surrounding circumstances. Never had any problems. Just all seemed
| like common sense to me.

Calmer heads prevail...

--
love,
la mangosteena

"Creationists are the best evidence we have that there is no intelligent
design." -- Josef Balluch

From:	warner1 at ix.netcom.com
Subject:	Re: comments on horse
Date:	21 Jan 2005 12:34:34 -0800

Tom & Win wrote:
> On 1/21/05 11:00 AM, in article 10v29p8bh7pc20f@corp.supernews.com,
"Jim
> Casey" wrote:

snipped for brevity...

> I have been the companion a couple of times for first time horses. It
is
> interesting to watch an OTTB walk downhill on a trail the first time.
> >

Ok, I give up... what does "OTTB" mean? :-)

Ruth W.

From:	lizzard woman
Subject:	Re: comments on horse
Date:	Fri, 21 Jan 2005 20:46:15 GMT

wrote in message
news:1106339674.809573.48250@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
|
| Tom & Win wrote:
| > On 1/21/05 11:00 AM, in article 10v29p8bh7pc20f@corp.supernews.com,
| "Jim
| > Casey" wrote:
|
| snipped for brevity...
|
| > I have been the companion a couple of times for first time horses. It
| is
| > interesting to watch an OTTB walk downhill on a trail the first time.
| > >
|
| Ok, I give up... what does "OTTB" mean? :-)

Off-the-track-thoroughbred.

Some 99%+ of all thoroughbreds in the US I imagine thus making the "OT" part
not necessary in almost all instances.

--
love,
la mangosteena

"Creationists are the best evidence we have that there is no intelligent
design." -- Josef Balluch

From:	Hunter
Subject:	Re: comments on horse
Date:	Fri, 21 Jan 2005 16:56:37 -0500

warner1@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> Tom & Win wrote:
>
>>On 1/21/05 11:00 AM, in article 10v29p8bh7pc20f@corp.supernews.com,
>
> "Jim
>
>>Casey" wrote:
>
>
> snipped for brevity...
>
>
>>I have been the companion a couple of times for first time horses. It
>
> is
>
>>interesting to watch an OTTB walk downhill on a trail the first time.
>>
>
> Ok, I give up... what does "OTTB" mean? :-)
>
> Ruth W.
>
Off the Track Thoroughbred.

From:	cindi
Subject:	Re: comments on horse
Date:	21 Jan 2005 21:37:45 -0800

"I don't think that "trail riding" ( whatever that is) requires a high
degree of skill, but it does require that the horse is accustomed to
it and that the rider knows how to deal with the possible situations
that may arise. Most of this "skill" can be acquired easily enough by
just going out and doing it, and doesn't neccesarily require
instructuion, per se."

I think this paragraph has helped me understand what Sharon might be
saying. When I speak of a lesson taking place on a trail, I'm not
talking about teaching somebody how to ride on a trail. I'm talking
about being there as a coach/instructor for somebody who's going to
possibly experience more interesting things under saddle than what's
happened in the ring so far. Obviously if somebody is a good enough
rider, they won't need anyone in that role. My students, being rank
beginners, have all experienced more impulsion and a lesser ability to
get and keep the horses' attention, when outside the ring. Of course,
we are taking a miniscule difference here, because the horses I use for
this are plugs, completely, but for a novice, there is still a
difference. Being the first time they've ever found themselves in
situation, they often forget their instruction and get nervous and
react inappropriately. During the lesson, I keep them on track, help
guide them into better reactions and help them become proactive, ease
their fears, whatever.

I don't see this as any different than the same students learning to
swing ropes off the horses, learning to trailer-load them, learning to
clip bridlepaths or give injections or whatever - it is different from
ring work and until they have a foundation of skills, they need help.
Obviously, if Sharon or anybody else is a good enough horseperson to
handle whatever might come up during anything other than ring riding,
there is no need to include those other activities in the lesson, in
general. I do sometimes think that people can get lax and think they
are ready for more than they are, particularly people who've owned one
horse all their lives who was very well behaved and easy. I don't
think it would hurt Sharon or me or anybody else to have somebody come
along on a trail ride in and act in an instructor role, because it's
always good to get a fresh viewpoint and to have somebody else check in
on what you are doing. And to reiterate my previous point, just
because somebody has had years of dressage lessons in the ring does not
mean they are not going to have any problems with things other than
ring work. Just because somebody has ridden one horse for years on the
trail and done all the horsey things with that one horse, does not
automatically mean that person is ready to handle whatever might come
up with a different horse.

cindi

From:	lizzard woman
Subject:	Re: comments on horse
Date:	Sat, 22 Jan 2005 06:00:11 GMT

"cindi" wrote in message
news:1106372265.605074.258690@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
| "I don't think that "trail riding" ( whatever that is) requires a high
| degree of skill, but it does require that the horse is accustomed to
| it and that the rider knows how to deal with the possible situations
| that may arise. Most of this "skill" can be acquired easily enough by
| just going out and doing it, and doesn't neccesarily require
| instructuion, per se."
|
| I think this paragraph has helped me understand what Sharon might be
| saying. When I speak of a lesson taking place on a trail, I'm not
| talking about teaching somebody how to ride on a trail. I'm talking
| about being there as a coach/instructor for somebody who's going to
| possibly experience more interesting things under saddle than what's
| happened in the ring so far.

That is NOT what I understood you were talking about at all! You were
talking about lessons on how to ride on the trail v. how to ride in the
ring. If I remembered the thread name, I'd look it up.

(snip)

| I don't
| think it would hurt Sharon or me or anybody else to have somebody come
| along on a trail ride in and act in an instructor role, because it's
| always good to get a fresh viewpoint and to have somebody else check in
| on what you are doing.

I'll take 'em but I ain't paying for 'em. All my lesson money goes for
dressage instruction at this point in my life. I'd add a third lesson a
week before I'd buy trail riding lessons. I like the challenge.

--
love,
la mangosteena

"The United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian
Religion" -- Treaty of Tripoli, 1797, ratified by Congress

From:	warner1 at ix.netcom.com
Subject:	Re: comments on horse
Date:	21 Jan 2005 20:22:54 -0800

wkambic@vic.com wrote:
> On 21 Jan 2005 19:18:10 -0800, warner1@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >LOL! Reminds me of a small child talking, looking back and THUNK!!!
> >They walked right into a wall, door or edge of the door.
> >
> >I just thought trail riding was common sense and such matters were
> >obvious. I use to ride my horse everywhere! Everywhere = woods,
> >reservoir, down the side of the road to the grocery store, through
the
> >lake (we'd swim together), up and down, over and under, across...
you
> >name it. I'd dismount and walk on occasion, as well, depending on
the
> >surrounding circumstances. Never had any problems. Just all seemed
> >like common sense to me.
>
> No one ever, on any occasion, gave you any suggestions? ;-)

I don't remember any suggestions from anyone. I was a young, dumb,
teen-ager (15). I was invincible. I rode with my other teenage
friends who had a horse or I rode by myself. I rode every chance I
got. I read everything I got my hands on, too. The only thing that I
was told was, "Watch out! He'll try to rub you off at the barn."
That's it. My friends with horses were every bit as stupid as me. I
lived in an area of not many horse owners. I didn't board the horse,
so I did not have the benefit of others information from there.

Oops... now that I think of it, that might not be quite accurate. As a
kid, I use to ride on guided trail rides (before I got my own horse).
The trail guide may have said, "Duck." But those trails were on
private property, a very large, fenced in property, on very well used
trails. No creeks, streams, ponds, or very, very low hanging tree
branches - nothing of any great significance. It was a commercial
business that took people horseback riding around their property. I
don't really count that as "trail riding."

I mostly, learned by doing. The rest was reading and... well, you're
gonna LOVE this... watching TV. I figured if they (cowboys) could swim
with the horses, then so could I! I noticed how they (cowboys)
ducked... next to the horses head, so, I did the same. Oh, and
remember the cartoons that had someone or something riding an animal
and not be paying attention, look back and get thwapped by the tree
limb? Or, they'd end up going around in circles on that tree limb,
while their animal went running under the limb? I couldn't let THAT
happen to me!

The first time we went swimming, I told my mom that the horse rolled
after we got out of the lake. She said it was because he needed to get
his fur up, off his body. So, that became a routine....swim across the
lake, he'd go down to roll, I'd step off, he rolled, then he'd get up
and I'd go find a tree stump or short hill to climb back on him.

>
> >Oops, I better tell my friends who ride with us (on the property),
if
> >and when we go trail riding together, to DUCK, where and how to
cross
> >the creek, how to sit going up and down the slopes/hills, and how to
> >handle the inevitable trail blocks, etc. !!! It never occured to me
to
> >have to tell them how to do that. (I continually make this mistake:
I
> >believe everyone knows everything that I know, regardless as to how
> >much or how little.) Facsinating, the things I learn here.
>
> Some things are intuitive, some are not. <<

True. Telling my friends about certain things should be common sense
to me ... but, alas, it eluded me.

>And sometimes you can do things that are dangerous and get away with
it. Sometimes you do things correctly and it doesn't work out.

I got away with it. If I don't say something, then they may not be so
lucky. ;-)

> All this means is that life
> is a series of probabilities.
>
> Personally, I always liked to keep the odds on my side. :-)
>

Obviously, I did not do that, nor do I always manage to do it now. I'd
like to think I am a tad bit wiser, now. However, sometimes my brain
goes left and common sense goes right. Sometimes, the lights are just
off until the group flips the switch for me. Thanks, again. :-)
Ruth W.

From:	cindi
Subject:	Re: comments on horse
Date:	21 Jan 2005 22:53:15 -0800

Here is what I said. It's from the thread called 17 HH Spanish Norman:

"I've been wondering, are you getting any experience with groundwork in
your lessons? Do you know how to teach a horse to pick up its feet
or how to handle a horse who doesn't lead well and how to teach a horse
to load in the trailer and all that sort of stuff? There is so much
to it, much more than just being able to ride the critter... Do you
get to trail ride in your lessons at all? Lunge? Ground drive? Pony?
Catch a horse in a pasture with other horses? Sack out a horse? Bounce
a huge green ball up onto a horse's back? :-) "

Now, obviously if I had to ask you those questions, I did not already
know
the answers, yes? I did not know all the stuff you put in your first
paragraph
of reply to me here, where you said:
"I owned a horse for 18 years and rode daily many of those years, on
the
trail and in the ring. I had some dressage lessons before I bought my
mare
at Claremont and had a year more of dressage lessons during her
retirement.
I had 5 years of H/J training before I leased a horse which was one
year
before I bought. That included 3 summers of intensive H/J riding camp.
I
am not claiming that that is even in the top half of experience among
people
on this group. I am claiming it's enough to know how to bathe a damn
horse
ferchrissakes."

Without you detailing what you actually did during those lessons, there
is no
way to know if it is enough to know how to bathe a horse. And like I
said, I
have dressage riders here who've had lots of professional lessons yet
who were
never allowed to lead the horse. They very definitely do NOT know how
to
bathe - and I don't mean putting on soap and water. I mean how to
properly
handle the horse so it becomes better broke to bathe each and every
time
its done.

You also said: "At my present barn, every student is required to go get
their horse (stall
or paddock), groom it, tack it up, and be warmed up by the beginning of
the
lesson. Same at the barn in Michigan. "

I obviously did not know what you did at your present barn. You might
note
that I asked you what you did at your present barn - that is exactly
what I
was asking about in that paragraph where I said do you get to go on
trails,
lunge, etc etc. But you didn't answer until now.

You also said:
"Your point, continually throughout your posts, is that things like
trail
riding, bathing, basic horse care are rocket science. I claim it
isn't."

You might search for the words "cindi rocket science". I myself have
said here in this very forum that it's not rocket science. That being
said, there are still plenty of people who can't do it without proper
instruction in ALL aspects of horsemanship, not just riding. And there
are plenty of people who still can't do it even after instruction. If
you
are educated and capable of handling all aspects of horse ownership,
you could have simply said "Well, Cindi, thank you for your concern,
but my experience is xyz and at my current barn I get to do abc."

If you haven't met any DQs who can't keep Muffin from chewing on them
while they stand and gab with friends, and if all the dressage riders
that you know are capable of taking Muffin out to the wilderness and
horse camping with him for a week and then bringing the cattle herd
back with them, forging rivers and going up and down steep terrain
with deer, geese taking flight, etc, then good for you. But I know
plenty
who can ride dressage and that's it.

I don't have anything against dressage so I don't understand this:
"I think the comments you make about dressage appear to come out of
thin air."
I haven't made any comments about dressage. I LIKE dressage. I have
recently
hired a classical dressage trainer.

cindi

From:	cindi
Subject:	Re: Trail School ......was Re: comments on horse
Date:	22 Jan 2005 08:03:27 -0800

MMcC wrote:of dis

> This experience can be acquired by one's self with out the need for
> instruction, per se.

Actually, the need for instruction will depend on what the rider's
already experienced in other riding situations. Plenty of people
I know have never experienced anything other than total obedience
in the ring, and the first time they venture out will be the first
time they have to deal with various more interesting things that
might come up: too much implusion, balkiness, spookiness, barn
sour, jigging or prancing, plus, depending on the horse, more
extreme reactions. If this is the first time the rider has been
in those situations, being with an instructor will certainly help.

I'm obviously not talking about people who are experienced enough
to know how to work thru anything that might come up.

cindi

From:	warner1 at ix.netcom.com
Subject:	Re: comments on horse
Date:	21 Jan 2005 12:25:58 -0800

Jim Casey wrote:

> Let me tell you a little story.
>
> I always gave riders a brief drill in such concepts as how to
> ... ride under a low-hanging branch.
>
>snipped for brevity<

You mean duck?! People have to be reminded to duck or am I missing
something?!

Ruth W.

From:	Jim Casey
Subject:	Re: comments on horse
Date:	Fri, 21 Jan 2005 14:33:03 -0600

warner1@ix.netcom.com wrote:

> Jim Casey wrote:

>>I always gave riders a brief drill in such concepts as how to
>>... ride under a low-hanging branch.

> You mean duck?! People have to be reminded to duck or am I missing
> something?!

I have seen IRL the classic Blazing Saddles scene where someone looking
over their shoulder crashes into a branch.

However, some green riders try to hang off sideways or lie back and
manage to fall off.

We're talking here about situations where the horse has to lower its
head and the tree branches (flexible ones) come to the level of the
saddle. The best way to get through those is to put your head next to
the horse's neck and let everything else go where it will when you do that.

- Jim

From:	wkambic at vic.com
Subject:	Re: comments on horse
Date:	Fri, 21 Jan 2005 16:08:46 -0500

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 14:33:03 -0600, Jim Casey
wrote:

>warner1@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
>> Jim Casey wrote:
>
>>>I always gave riders a brief drill in such concepts as how to
>>>... ride under a low-hanging branch.
>
>> You mean duck?! People have to be reminded to duck or am I missing
>> something?!
>
>I have seen IRL the classic Blazing Saddles scene where someone looking
>over their shoulder crashes into a branch.

I don't remember this in "Blazing Saddles" but I do remember it from
"Mask of Zorro." :-) What I do remember from "Blazing Saddles" is
Sheriff Bart taking himself hostage and Mr. Taggert serving beans!!!!!

>However, some green riders try to hang off sideways or lie back and
>manage to fall off.
>
>We're talking here about situations where the horse has to lower its
>head and the tree branches (flexible ones) come to the level of the
>saddle. The best way to get through those is to put your head next to
>the horse's neck and let everything else go where it will when you do that.

Indeed. The issue is not whether do duck but how to duck without
either falling off or unbalancing the horse sufficiently so it fall
over. The technique is not always obvious. :-)

In fact there are a number skills that one needs on the trail but will
not learn in a ring, such as how to ride up and down slopes, selection
of water crossing points, and when to dismount and walk to give the
horse a break. They are not "rocket science" but are skills that need
to be learned.

Bill Kambic

"I will now read from the book of Mathew, Mark, Luke, and DUCK!"

From:	lizzard woman
Subject:	Re: comments on horse
Date:	Fri, 21 Jan 2005 21:13:04 GMT

wrote in message
news:hdr2v0poso61iv7hurpinhq741niff1fkl@4ax.com...

(snip)

| In fact there are a number skills that one needs on the trail but will
| not learn in a ring, such as how to ride up and down slopes, selection
| of water crossing points, and when to dismount and walk to give the
| horse a break. They are not "rocket science" but are skills that need
| to be learned.

Might I suggest these skills are far far far far far more easily learned in
general and on one's own than, say, taking up a training program in jumping
or dressage?

--
love,
la mangosteena

"Creationists are the best evidence we have that there is no intelligent
design." -- Josef Balluch

From:	wkambic at vic.com
Subject:	Re: comments on horse
Date:	Fri, 21 Jan 2005 16:37:03 -0500

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 21:13:04 GMT, "lizzard woman"
wrote:

> wrote in message
>news:hdr2v0poso61iv7hurpinhq741niff1fkl@4ax.com...
>
>(snip)
>
>| In fact there are a number skills that one needs on the trail but will
>| not learn in a ring, such as how to ride up and down slopes, selection
>| of water crossing points, and when to dismount and walk to give the
>| horse a break. They are not "rocket science" but are skills that need
>| to be learned.
>
>Might I suggest these skills are far far far far far more easily learned in
>general and on one's own than, say, taking up a training program in jumping
>or dressage?

In fact they are NOT easily learned on one's own, as they are not
always intuitive. You are correct that they are not learned in a
jumping or dressage venue. They are learned by being properly
mentored on the trail.

Bill Kambic

P.S. You can read about these things in books, but it's a lot better
if you can have an experienced person coach you.

From:	lizzard woman
Subject:	Re: comments on horse
Date:	Fri, 21 Jan 2005 21:42:43 GMT

wrote in message
news:jct2v09gm6ktmjgiv3r9nd22n1e3rtsplb@4ax.com...
| On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 21:13:04 GMT, "lizzard woman"
| wrote:
|
| > wrote in message
| >news:hdr2v0poso61iv7hurpinhq741niff1fkl@4ax.com...
| >
| >(snip)
| >
| >| In fact there are a number skills that one needs on the trail but will
| >| not learn in a ring, such as how to ride up and down slopes, selection
| >| of water crossing points, and when to dismount and walk to give the
| >| horse a break. They are not "rocket science" but are skills that need
| >| to be learned.
| >
| >Might I suggest these skills are far far far far far more easily learned
in
| >general and on one's own than, say, taking up a training program in
jumping
| >or dressage?
|
| In fact they are NOT easily learned on one's own, as they are not
| always intuitive. You are correct that they are not learned in a
| jumping or dressage venue. They are learned by being properly
| mentored on the trail.
|
| Bill Kambic
|
| P.S. You can read about these things in books, but it's a lot better
| if you can have an experienced person coach you.

Welp, all I can say is I have met any number of idiot savants who managed to
trail ride with no lessons and lived to tell about it despite doing it did
it week in, week out, month in, month out, year in year out.

Of course the trials in the Bronx, Ann Arbor, Cedarburg, and Madison might
be different than what you and others are speaking of. I doubt it but
perhaps.

--
love,
la mangosteena

"Creationists are the best evidence we have that there is no intelligent
design." -- Josef Balluch

From:	wkambic at vic.com
Subject:	Re: comments on horse
Date:	Fri, 21 Jan 2005 16:57:40 -0500

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 21:42:43 GMT, "lizzard woman"
wrote:

>| P.S. You can read about these things in books, but it's a lot better
>| if you can have an experienced person coach you.
>
>
>Welp, all I can say is I have met any number of idiot savants who managed to
>trail ride with no lessons and lived to tell about it despite doing it did
>it week in, week out, month in, month out, year in year out.

Where did I use the word "lessons?" It's the aquisition of a
specialized set of skills that one generally learns by doing them
under instruction. It's OJT, if you will.

Og and Mog certainly did not have any lessons the first few times they
tried going up and/or down hill, but we don't have any information on
the number of spills or broken limbs suffered in the learning process.
We, today, have the advantage of their knowledge. We would be
particularly idiotic to ignore it.

>Of course the trials in the Bronx, Ann Arbor, Cedarburg, and Madison might
>be different than what you and others are speaking of.

I suspect that a large percentage of folks never ventured outside ot
the school. Or if they did it was on a prepared bridle path.

Bill Kambic

From:	Carlyle Emerson
Subject:	Re: comments on horse
Date:	Fri, 21 Jan 2005 23:31:24 GMT

"lizzard woman" wrote in message
news:AfeId.138089$6l.134643@pd7tw2no...
> wrote in message
> news:hdr2v0poso61iv7hurpinhq741niff1fkl@4ax.com...
>
> (snip)
>
> | In fact there are a number skills that one needs on the trail but will
> | not learn in a ring, such as how to ride up and down slopes, selection
> | of water crossing points, and when to dismount and walk to give the
> | horse a break. They are not "rocket science" but are skills that need
> | to be learned.
>
> Might I suggest these skills are far far far far far more easily learned
> in
> general and on one's own than, say, taking up a training program in
> jumping
> or dressage?

Nonsense. It's a mistaken belief that jumping a horse over obstacles or
sitting as with a stick up one's ass are esoteric skills, achieved only
under the tutelage of others who also believe such silliness.

It might be interesitng to see you working Pete through a CTR trial. CTR is
a lot like dressage in that it purports to objectively measure subjective
quality and different in that the horses actually do stuff. About as
exciting too...

From:	Jim Casey
Subject:	Re: comments on horse
Date:	Fri, 21 Jan 2005 16:28:56 -0600

wkambic@vic.com wrote:

> I don't remember this in "Blazing Saddles" ...

Maybe it was a different movie.

> In fact there are a number skills that one needs on the trail but will
> not learn in a ring, such as ...

* operating an old-fashioned water pump while holding a horse
* crossing bridges and railroad tracks
* landing in mud, water, or snow after jumps
* identification of venomous snakes and poisonous plants
* disentangling your horse from buried barbed wire
* what to do when your horse suddenly sinks into a bog until it's
floating

This last item happened to a friend while I was with her. The horse was
on the ground one moment. The next it was up to the rider's thighs in
mud. I was too shocked to think anything except the famous two-word
phrase that is heard on so many cockpit voice recorders.

She slid off and rolled away from the horse, got her knees on solid
ground, then used the reins to turn the horse around until it could
climb out.

- Jim

From:	lizzard woman
Subject:	Re: comments on horse
Date:	Fri, 21 Jan 2005 22:34:07 GMT

"Jim Casey" wrote in message
news:10v30ho8srbire1@corp.supernews.com...

(snip)

| This last item happened to a friend while I was with her. The horse was
| on the ground one moment. The next it was up to the rider's thighs in
| mud. I was too shocked to think anything except the famous two-word
| phrase that is heard on so many cockpit voice recorders.
|
| She slid off and rolled away from the horse, got her knees on solid
| ground, then used the reins to turn the horse around until it could
| climb out.

Surely she must have had umpteen trail riding lessons in that exact maneuver
to have pulled that off, yes?

;)

--
love,
la mangosteena

"Creationists are the best evidence we have that there is no intelligent
design." -- Josef Balluch

From:	Jim Casey
Subject:	Re: comments on horse
Date:	Fri, 21 Jan 2005 17:20:47 -0600

lizzard woman wrote:

> Surely she must have had umpteen trail riding lessons in that exact maneuver
> to have pulled that off, yes?

This business of trail lessons has become tiresome. I already told you
no one I knew took trail lessons advertised as such.

This woman saved herself and her horse through sheer guts and native
intelligence. I had never contemplated such a scenario nor read about it.

However, she had thousands of hours of trail riding, and was much more
likely to emerge unscathed from a bad situation than the hothouse flower
who screamed and dropped her reins upon seeing a deer (I saw this, too).

- Jim

From:	jJohn Klausner
Subject:	Re: comments on horse
Date:	Sat, 22 Jan 2005 10:53:20 -0800

Enjoying the back and forth, but I must admit I don't understand why you
argue with her - there are none so blind as those who _will_ not see,
and I don't recall lizzard ever admitting she was wrong....on anything.
SueK

Jim Casey wrote:
> lizzard woman wrote:
>
>> Surely she must have had umpteen trail riding lessons in that exact
>> maneuver to have pulled that off, yes?
>
>
> This business of trail lessons has become tiresome. I already told you
> no one I knew took trail lessons advertised as such.
>
> This woman saved herself and her horse through sheer guts and native
> intelligence. I had never contemplated such a scenario nor read about it.
>
> However, she had thousands of hours of trail riding, and was much more
> likely to emerge unscathed from a bad situation than the hothouse flower
> who screamed and dropped her reins upon seeing a deer (I saw this, too).
>
> - Jim
>

From:	Jim Casey
Subject:	Re: comments on horse
Date:	Sat, 22 Jan 2005 21:03:21 GMT

jJohn Klausner wrote:

> Enjoying the back and forth, but I must admit I don't understand why you
> argue with her - there are none so blind as those who _will_ not see,
> and I don't recall lizzard ever admitting she was wrong....on anything.

It's difficult to explain why people argue on Usenet. Perhaps it's a
compulsion.

In a case like this, the initial premise is so ridiculous that swatting it
down is irresistible.

- Jim

From:	Mary McHugh
Subject:	Re: comments on horse
Date:	Sat, 22 Jan 2005 16:34:05 -0500

Jim Casey wrote:
> jJohn Klausner wrote:
>
>> Enjoying the back and forth, but I must admit I don't understand why
>> you argue with her - there are none so blind as those who _will_ not
>> see, and I don't recall lizzard ever admitting she was wrong....on
>> anything.
>
>
> It's difficult to explain why people argue on Usenet. Perhaps it's a
> compulsion.

"The internet? You know that thing the government spent 20 billion
dollars on so 20,000 people can argue who was the best Star Trek
captain?" -- Kinky Friedman as himself, explaining the internet to his
cat, in the mystery novel _The Love Song of J. Edgar Hoover_

Mary

From:	Betty Woolf
Subject:	Re: comments on horse
Date:	Sat, 22 Jan 2005 20:43:53 GMT

jJohn Klausner wrote:

> Enjoying the back and forth, but I must admit I don't understand why you
> argue with her - there are none so blind as those who _will_ not see,
> and I don't recall lizzard ever admitting she was wrong....on anything.
> SueK

I have actually seen lizzard show signs of amending her opinions.

On the other hand, I have also observed her present opinions in such a
way as to provoke strong disagreement from the casual reader. These
posts tend to be so imprecise or vague in wording that she can endlessly
redefine her statements while attempting to portray those who disagree
with her as idiots. This style is the same as most of the other posters
in this playground who provoke the strongest positive or negative
feelings, and my guess is that it's done on purpose in each and every case.

On current subject, my experience of trail riding and the relative ease
of such is pretty close to the Lizzard's, but I have also seen the kind
of all-ring-all-the-time "riders" who were clueless about how to
influence a horse under even slightly challenging circumstances. And
I've also ridden horses who rarely get out of the ring who were a
freaking nightmare on the trails.

Betty

>
> Jim Casey wrote:
>
>> lizzard woman wrote:
>>
>>> Surely she must have had umpteen trail riding lessons in that exact
>>> maneuver to have pulled that off, yes?
>>
>>
>>
>> This business of trail lessons has become tiresome. I already told
>> you no one I knew took trail lessons advertised as such.
>>
>> This woman saved herself and her horse through sheer guts and native
>> intelligence. I had never contemplated such a scenario nor read about
>> it.
>>
>> However, she had thousands of hours of trail riding, and was much more
>> likely to emerge unscathed from a bad situation than the hothouse
>> flower who screamed and dropped her reins upon seeing a deer (I saw
>> this, too).
>>
>> - Jim
>>

From:	lizzard woman
Subject:	Re: comments on horse
Date:	Sat, 22 Jan 2005 01:33:15 GMT

"Jim Casey" wrote in message
news:10v33iuork1r80f@corp.supernews.com...
| lizzard woman wrote:
|
| > Surely she must have had umpteen trail riding lessons in that exact
maneuver
| > to have pulled that off, yes?
|
| This business of trail lessons has become tiresome. I already told you
| no one I knew took trail lessons advertised as such.

Okay, okay.

Perhaps we can ask Cindi about these trail riding lessons since she was the
one who admonished me to get some (along with horse bathing lessons) despite
having trail ridden (and bathed horses) successfully for years. She
wouldn't have suggested them if they didn't exist.

--
love,
la mangosteena

"Creationists are the best evidence we have that there is no intelligent
design." -- Josef Balluch

From:	Priscilla Dance
Subject:	Re: comments on horse
Date:	Sat, 22 Jan 2005 10:47:22 -0700

lizzard woman wrote:

> "Jim Casey" wrote in message
> news:10v33iuork1r80f@corp.supernews.com...
> | lizzard woman wrote:
> |
> | > Surely she must have had umpteen trail riding lessons in that exact
> maneuver
> | > to have pulled that off, yes?
> |
> | This business of trail lessons has become tiresome. I already told you
> | no one I knew took trail lessons advertised as such.
>
> Okay, okay.
>
> Perhaps we can ask Cindi about these trail riding lessons since she was the
> one who admonished me to get some (along with horse bathing lessons) despite
> having trail ridden (and bathed horses) successfully for years. She
> wouldn't have suggested them if they didn't exist.
>
There's an article in Practical Horseman about Rick Pelicano, a sergeant
with the Maryland National Capitol Park police, who gives lessons on
trail-proofing your horse. He can be reached at info@rickpelicano.com
and www.rickpelicano.com.

What I found interesting about this article was that if confirmed
something. I always felt that dressage helped my trail riding and that
using a shoulder in (or out) helped me get by bogeys on the trail. That
is one of his techniques. So I believe that hours spent in the ring,
working with your horse, do often translate into better trail riding.

Priscilla

From:	lizzard woman
Subject:	Re: comments on horse
Date:	Sat, 22 Jan 2005 17:56:18 GMT

"Priscilla Dance" wrote in message
news:nkwId.16$GR.3706@news.uswest.net...
| lizzard woman wrote:
|
| > "Jim Casey" wrote in message
| > news:10v33iuork1r80f@corp.supernews.com...
| > | lizzard woman wrote:
| > |
| > | > Surely she must have had umpteen trail riding lessons in that exact
| > maneuver
| > | > to have pulled that off, yes?
| > |
| > | This business of trail lessons has become tiresome. I already told
you
| > | no one I knew took trail lessons advertised as such.
| >
| > Okay, okay.
| >
| > Perhaps we can ask Cindi about these trail riding lessons since she was
the
| > one who admonished me to get some (along with horse bathing lessons)
despite
| > having trail ridden (and bathed horses) successfully for years. She
| > wouldn't have suggested them if they didn't exist.
| >
| There's an article in Practical Horseman about Rick Pelicano, a sergeant
| with the Maryland National Capitol Park police, who gives lessons on
| trail-proofing your horse. He can be reached at info@rickpelicano.com
| and www.rickpelicano.com.
|
| What I found interesting about this article was that if confirmed
| something. I always felt that dressage helped my trail riding and that
| using a shoulder in (or out) helped me get by bogeys on the trail. That
| is one of his techniques. So I believe that hours spent in the ring,
| working with your horse, do often translate into better trail riding.

That has been mine point all along. I have known any number of competent
ring riders who were able to translate that competence to trail riding
without any net whatsoever. This was mor