|
|
 | | From: | Len McLaughlin | | Subject: | Polgamy: A Natural Fit for Canada ?/blame Harper? | | Date: | Sun, 23 Jan 2005 21:19:31 GMT |
|
|
 | All material below fwd. -lm
====
The Ottawa Citizen
Thursday, January 20, 2005
Just weeks before it introduces divisive same- marriage legislation, the
federal government has launched an urgent study into the legal and social
ramifications of polygamy.
Critics say the study underscores a deep concern in the Martin government
that legalized homoual marriage may lead to constitutional challenges
from minority groups who claim polygamy as a religious right.
It also suggests that the government is suspicious that multi-marriage is
more commonplace in Canada than widely realized. Polygamy, outlawed in
Canada but accepted and practised in many countries, typically means a man
having several wives at the same time.
"In order to best prepare for possible debate surrounding Canada's polygamy
policy, critical research is needed," says a Status of Women Canada
document. "It is vital that researchers explore the impacts of polygamy on
women and children and gender equality as well as the challenges that
polygamy presents to society."
----
Polygamy: a natural fit for Canada?
Don't fear polygamy: Muslim leader
Better than secret affairs, says chief of Canadian congress
Chris Cobb and Bob Harvey, with files from Tim Naumetz and
Philip Authier
CanWest News Service
January 21, 2005
Polygamy among consenting adults is less damaging to families,
and less harmful to children, than secret extra-marital affairs, one of
Canada's most prominent Muslims said yesterday.
According to Mr. Elmasry, polygamy, as practised in Muslim
countries and by "a few" Canadian Muslims, can be a positive family force --
"a husband having a mistress is legal and socially acceptable in Canada," he
said, "and it's irrelevant if the wife knows or not."
He said polygamy can be more moral than a secret affair because
the first wife accepts the second wife, and the second wife, and all
children of the marriages, are treated equally in one family unit.
"Mistresses, and especially kids from a mistress can have big,
big problems," he said. "It is devastating when a kid cannot say 'This is my
father.' "
At the same time, Canada's Catholic primate, Marc Cardinal
Ouellet, added his voice to a chorus of opposition to the promised
legislation, warning that same- marriage "could bring in its wake bitter
and unpredictable demographic, social, cultural and religious consequences."
He said that changing the institution of marriage ignores the
fact "the procreation and education of children, within the context of the
love of a man and a woman, guarantees the future of society. The union of
persons of the same cannot make this essential contribution to society
...."
"to illustrate his point that children under Muslim polygamy
fared better than children born into affairs.
Former Toronto mayor Mel Lastman allegedly fathered two sons
during a secret affair but refused to recognize them as his own. The boys
said they knew Mr. Lastman only as a friend of their mother. The former
mayor never confirmed or denied they are his sons but did admit to the
affair.
And it wasn't until he was close to death that former French
President Francois Mitterrand caused a scandal when he revealed for the
first time he had an adult daughter from a long-time lover.
The National Post reported on Wednesday that the federal agency
Status of Women Canada (SWC) has launched an urgent study into the legal and
social ramifications of polygamy. The agency says its study has been
motivated by reports of polygamy in the British Columbia community of
Bountiful, where it is alleged that, in an offshoot of the Mormon religion,
girls of aged 14 or 15 have been married to men up to 30 years older.
But critics say the study underscores a deep concern in the
Martin government that legalized homoual marriage may lead to
constitutional challenges from minority groups who claim polygamy as a
religious right.
He said the SWC research project had been commissioned by his
department only after a request from the B.C. government following
complaints of polygamy at a religious commune in the province.
"Polygamy is a criminal offence; it is illegal," he said.
"Same- marriage is constitutional and valid."
However, any Canadian can legally practise polygamy, according
to Mr. Elmasry.
"You just have to label your second wife a mistress or
girlfriend," he said. "It could be happening in Canada, but in tax reporting
or other official documents the second wife doesn't show up as a second
wife. So, according to Canadian law, the relationships are legal. But the
second wife can be the mother of his children and he can give her some
inheritance and it is perfectly legal also. I don't want to say that there
are zero cases in our [Muslim] community, but it is very small."
-----
National Post
January 22, 2005
It's a strange feeling, as a man, to find myself agreeing with Stephen
Harper. Changing the definition of marriage could -- rightly -- open up the
public debate for a radical redefinition of marriage to include various
forms, including polygamy.
And why not? As a cultural fact, polygamy isn't all that radical: It has
enjoyed support throughout history and across the religious and sociological
spectrum. Despite the squeamishness of some, there are those who would
choose this form of family, and who do so already without the blessing of
the state. And why shouldn't they?
Alex MacLean,
===
January 21, 2005
The Spectre of Polygamy
Re: Don't Fear Polygamy: Muslim Leader, Jan. 21.
Several years ago, in a teacher-training college in Uganda, we had some
classroom discussions about polygamy. Many students came from polygamous
backgrounds and they concurred on one issue: there was always a favourite
wife, and the children of that wife got preferential treatment.
Canadian Islamic Congress president Mohamed Elmasry is not being completely
up-front about polygamous issues - and particularly why it is always the man
who is able to enjoy a number of spouses but not the woman. Why compare a
worse-case scenario - an extra-marital affair - with polygamy? Is this not
just admitting that a close, loving relationship with one person is
preferable?
Charles Ledger, Peterborough, Ont.
--
THE CITIZEN
Latest News
Polygamy, the next debate
Government launches urgent study as same- unions open door to Charter
challenges claiming plural marriages are a religious right
Chris Cobb
The Ottawa Citizen
Thursday, January 20, 2005
Just weeks before it introduces divisive same- marriage legislation, the
federal government has launched an urgent study into the legal and social
ramifications of polygamy.
Critics say the study underscores a deep concern in the Martin government
that legalized homoual marriage may lead to constitutional challenges
from minority groups who claim polygamy as a religious right.
It also suggests that the government is suspicious that multi-marriage is
more commonplace in Canada than widely realized. Polygamy, outlawed in
Canada but accepted and practised in many countries, typically means a man
having several wives at the same time.
"In order to best prepare for possible debate surrounding Canada's polygamy
policy, critical research is needed," says a Status of Women Canada
document. "It is vital that researchers explore the impacts of polygamy on
women and children and gender equality as well as the challenges that
polygamy presents to society."
Conservative party justice critic Vic Toews says there is a direct link
between the Status of Women concern and the same- marriage legislation
due to be introduced by the government in February.
"This government understands it has a problem on its hands," said Mr. Toews,
a former Manitoba constitutional lawyer. "What they are looking for is
evidence to demonstrate that polygamy is inconsistent with Charter and
Canadian values. If I was a lawyer prosecuting a polygamist that's the type
of evidence I would be looking for."
Sayd Mumtaz Ali, president of the Canadian Society of Muslims, said he
opposes same- marriage but said if it is legalized in Canada, polygamists
would also be within their rights to challenge for their choice of family
life to be legalized.
"This is a liberally minded country with regards to equal rights," said Mr.
Ali. "And literally millions live common law."
Multiple marriage is legal in most Muslim countries, he said, but a Muslim
man who takes more than one wife must prove to a court that he is capable of
treating them all equally.
He said he knows of some "but not too many" Muslims who live in Canada with
more than one wife but knows of no situation where the wives are unwilling,
or unhappy, participants in the arrangement.
But Mr. Ali said he has not detected any significant support among Muslims
for a constitutional challenge. "To my knowledge there is no plan to push
for this,' he said.
But when same- marriage becomes legal, the door will open to more Charter
challenges, said Conservative critic Mr. Toews. "Once you change the
definition of marriage from one man and one woman and you move to two
persons," he said, "what then is the distinction between two persons, or
three or more persons? If I was a lawyer defending polygamists, I'd say 'hey
this is a constitutional right, a freedom of religion.' Why can't freedom of
religion trump this new definition of marriage?"
Lawyer Peter Hogg, who argued the federal government's case for same-
marriage at the Supreme Court of Canada, said he doubts legalizing
homoual marriage will lead to legal challenges from polygamists.
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|
|
| | From: | Pigskin | | Subject: | Re: Polgamy: A Natural Fit for Canada ?/blame Harper? | | Date: | Mon, 24 Jan 2005 03:27:22 GMT |
|
|
| People are saying Harper is out in left field somewhere. But is he really?
Currently the state sanctions "man joined to woman" and is thinking of
also
joining women to women or men to men.
So what about all the other permutations and combinations?
Man "joined to several women"
women "joined to several men".
and finally several women joined to several men in a kind of commune.
All of these occur today unofficially.
If monogamous and lesbian unions are a right why isn't everything else?
Won't questions about these other unions also end up in the supreme court
some day?
How much do you wanna bet the supreme court will allow these other
relationships?
I am willing to be they will.
I am just throwing these ideas out.
Personally I wish the government would get out of unions between even a man
and a woman
and treat everything as agreements between two or more people.
I know this will never happen I just whish it would.
For sure this is a wedge issue and what will really be interesting is how it
plays
out in a minority situation.
I don't think Harper is being a kook.
The more groups he brings into this debate the less likely it is to pass.
"Len McLaughlin" wrote in message
news:DxUId.216660$Np3.9114083@ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca...
> All material below fwd. -lm
>
> ====
>
> The Ottawa Citizen
>
>
> Thursday, January 20, 2005
>
>
> Just weeks before it introduces divisive same- marriage legislation,
the
> federal government has launched an urgent study into the legal and social
> ramifications of polygamy.
>
> Critics say the study underscores a deep concern in the Martin government
> that legalized homoual marriage may lead to constitutional challenges
> from minority groups who claim polygamy as a religious right.
>
> It also suggests that the government is suspicious that multi-marriage is
> more commonplace in Canada than widely realized. Polygamy, outlawed in
> Canada but accepted and practised in many countries, typically means a man
> having several wives at the same time.
>
> "In order to best prepare for possible debate surrounding Canada's
polygamy
> policy, critical research is needed," says a Status of Women Canada
> document. "It is vital that researchers explore the impacts of polygamy on
> women and children and gender equality as well as the challenges that
> polygamy presents to society."
>
> ----
> Polygamy: a natural fit for Canada?
>
> Don't fear polygamy: Muslim leader
> Better than secret affairs, says chief of Canadian congress
>
> Chris Cobb and Bob Harvey, with files from Tim Naumetz
and
> Philip Authier
> CanWest News Service
>
>
> January 21, 2005
>
>
> Polygamy among consenting adults is less damaging to families,
> and less harmful to children, than secret extra-marital affairs, one of
> Canada's most prominent Muslims said yesterday.
>
> According to Mr. Elmasry, polygamy, as practised in Muslim
> countries and by "a few" Canadian Muslims, can be a positive family
force --
> "a husband having a mistress is legal and socially acceptable in Canada,"
he
> said, "and it's irrelevant if the wife knows or not."
>
> He said polygamy can be more moral than a secret affair
because
> the first wife accepts the second wife, and the second wife, and all
> children of the marriages, are treated equally in one family unit.
>
> "Mistresses, and especially kids from a mistress can have big,
> big problems," he said. "It is devastating when a kid cannot say 'This is
my
> father.' "
>
> At the same time, Canada's Catholic primate, Marc Cardinal
> Ouellet, added his voice to a chorus of opposition to the promised
> legislation, warning that same- marriage "could bring in its wake
bitter
> and unpredictable demographic, social, cultural and religious
consequences."
>
> He said that changing the institution of marriage ignores the
> fact "the procreation and education of children, within the context of the
> love of a man and a woman, guarantees the future of society. The union of
> persons of the same cannot make this essential contribution to society
> ..."
>
> "to illustrate his point that children under Muslim polygamy
> fared better than children born into affairs.
>
> Former Toronto mayor Mel Lastman allegedly fathered two sons
> during a secret affair but refused to recognize them as his own. The boys
> said they knew Mr. Lastman only as a friend of their mother. The former
> mayor never confirmed or denied they are his sons but did admit to the
> affair.
>
> And it wasn't until he was close to death that former French
> President Francois Mitterrand caused a scandal when he revealed for the
> first time he had an adult daughter from a long-time lover.
>
> The National Post reported on Wednesday that the federal
agency
> Status of Women Canada (SWC) has launched an urgent study into the legal
and
> social ramifications of polygamy. The agency says its study has been
> motivated by reports of polygamy in the British Columbia community of
> Bountiful, where it is alleged that, in an offshoot of the Mormon
religion,
> girls of aged 14 or 15 have been married to men up to 30 years older.
>
> But critics say the study underscores a deep concern in the
> Martin government that legalized homoual marriage may lead to
> constitutional challenges from minority groups who claim polygamy as a
> religious right.
>
> He said the SWC research project had been commissioned by his
> department only after a request from the B.C. government following
> complaints of polygamy at a religious commune in the province.
>
> "Polygamy is a criminal offence; it is illegal," he said.
> "Same- marriage is constitutional and valid."
>
> However, any Canadian can legally practise polygamy, according
> to Mr. Elmasry.
>
> "You just have to label your second wife a mistress or
> girlfriend," he said. "It could be happening in Canada, but in tax
reporting
> or other official documents the second wife doesn't show up as a second
> wife. So, according to Canadian law, the relationships are legal. But the
> second wife can be the mother of his children and he can give her some
> inheritance and it is perfectly legal also. I don't want to say that there
> are zero cases in our [Muslim] community, but it is very small."
>
>
>
>
> -----
>
> National Post
>
>
> January 22, 2005
>
>
>
>
> It's a strange feeling, as a man, to find myself agreeing with Stephen
> Harper. Changing the definition of marriage could -- rightly -- open up
the
> public debate for a radical redefinition of marriage to include various
> forms, including polygamy.
>
> And why not? As a cultural fact, polygamy isn't all that radical: It has
> enjoyed support throughout history and across the religious and
sociological
> spectrum. Despite the squeamishness of some, there are those who would
> choose this form of family, and who do so already without the blessing of
> the state. And why shouldn't they?
>
> Alex MacLean,
>
> ===
>
> January 21, 2005
> The Spectre of Polygamy
> Re: Don't Fear Polygamy: Muslim Leader, Jan. 21.
> Several years ago, in a teacher-training college in Uganda, we had some
> classroom discussions about polygamy. Many students came from polygamous
> backgrounds and they concurred on one issue: there was always a favourite
> wife, and the children of that wife got preferential treatment.
> Canadian Islamic Congress president Mohamed Elmasry is not being
completely
> up-front about polygamous issues - and particularly why it is always the
man
> who is able to enjoy a number of spouses but not the woman. Why compare a
> worse-case scenario - an extra-marital affair - with polygamy? Is this not
> just admitting that a close, loving relationship with one person is
> preferable?
> Charles Ledger, Peterborough, Ont.
> --
>
> THE CITIZEN
> Latest News
>
>
> Polygamy, the next debate
> Government launches urgent study as same- unions open door to Charter
> challenges claiming plural marriages are a religious right
>
> Chris Cobb
> The Ottawa Citizen
>
>
> Thursday, January 20, 2005
>
>
> Just weeks before it introduces divisive same- marriage legislation,
the
> federal government has launched an urgent study into the legal and social
> ramifications of polygamy.
>
> Critics say the study underscores a deep concern in the Martin government
> that legalized homoual marriage may lead to constitutional challenges
> from minority groups who claim polygamy as a religious right.
>
> It also suggests that the government is suspicious that multi-marriage is
> more commonplace in Canada than widely realized. Polygamy, outlawed in
> Canada but accepted and practised in many countries, typically means a man
> having several wives at the same time.
>
> "In order to best prepare for possible debate surrounding Canada's
polygamy
> policy, critical research is needed," says a Status of Women Canada
> document. "It is vital that researchers explore the impacts of polygamy on
> women and children and gender equality as well as the challenges that
> polygamy presents to society."
>
> Conservative party justice critic Vic Toews says there is a direct link
> between the Status of Women concern and the same- marriage legislation
> due to be introduced by the government in February.
>
> "This government understands it has a problem on its hands," said Mr.
Toews,
> a former Manitoba constitutional lawyer. "What they are looking for is
> evidence to demonstrate that polygamy is inconsistent with Charter and
> Canadian values. If I was a lawyer prosecuting a polygamist that's the
type
> of evidence I would be looking for."
>
> Sayd Mumtaz Ali, president of the Canadian Society of Muslims, said he
> opposes same- marriage but said if it is legalized in Canada,
polygamists
> would also be within their rights to challenge for their choice of family
> life to be legalized.
>
> "This is a liberally minded country with regards to equal rights," said
Mr.
> Ali. "And literally millions live common law."
>
> Multiple marriage is legal in most Muslim countries, he said, but a Muslim
> man who takes more than one wife must prove to a court that he is capable
of
> treating them all equally.
>
> He said he knows of some "but not too many" Muslims who live in Canada
with
> more than one wife but knows of no situation where the wives are
unwilling,
> or unhappy, participants in the arrangement.
>
> But Mr. Ali said he has not detected any significant support among Muslims
> for a constitutional challenge. "To my knowledge there is no plan to push
> for this,' he said.
>
> But when same- marriage becomes legal, the door will open to more
Charter
> challenges, said Conservative critic Mr. Toews. "Once you change the
> definition of marriage from one man and one woman and you move to two
> persons," he said, "what then is the distinction between two persons, or
> three or more persons? If I was a lawyer defending polygamists, I'd say
'hey
> this is a constitutional right, a freedom of religion.' Why can't freedom
of
> religion trump this new definition of marriage?"
>
> Lawyer Peter Hogg, who argued the federal government's case for same-
> marriage at the Supreme Court of Canada, said he doubts legalizing
> homoual marriage will lead to legal challenges from polygamists.
>
>
>
|
|
| | From: | neoconÕæ߯ | | Subject: | Re: Polgamy: A Natural Fit for Canada ?/blame Harper? | | Date: | Sun, 23 Jan 2005 15:56:18 -0700 |
|
|
|
"Len McLaughlin" wrote in message
news:DxUId.216660$Np3.9114083@ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca...
> All material below fwd. -lm
>
> ====
>
> The Ottawa Citizen
>
>
> Thursday, January 20, 2005
>
>
> Just weeks before it introduces divisive same- marriage legislation,
the
> federal government has launched an urgent study into the legal and social
> ramifications of polygamy.
>
> Critics say the study underscores a deep concern in the Martin government
> that legalized homoual marriage may lead to constitutional challenges
> from minority groups who claim polygamy as a religious right.
>
> It also suggests that the government is suspicious that multi-marriage is
> more commonplace in Canada than widely realized. Polygamy, outlawed in
> Canada but accepted and practised in many countries, typically means a man
> having several wives at the same time.
>
> "In order to best prepare for possible debate surrounding Canada's
polygamy
> policy, critical research is needed," says a Status of Women Canada
> document. "It is vital that researchers explore the impacts of polygamy on
> women and children and gender equality as well as the challenges that
> polygamy presents to society."
>
> ----
> Polygamy: a natural fit for Canada?
>
> Don't fear polygamy: Muslim leader
> Better than secret affairs, says chief of Canadian congress
>
> Chris Cobb and Bob Harvey, with files from Tim Naumetz
and
> Philip Authier
> CanWest News Service
>
>
> January 21, 2005
>
>
> Polygamy among consenting adults is less damaging to families,
> and less harmful to children, than secret extra-marital affairs, one of
> Canada's most prominent Muslims said yesterday.
And so it begins..... the liberals are now reaping the seeds of division and
"leftyness" that they have been sowing for decades. It's time for them to
go, it's time for a constitutional ammendment that will enshrine traditional
marriage. But more importantly this issue has exemplified the role of the
judicial decree having more power than the wishes of the people in what's
supposed to be a democracy. If the house of commons can be over-ruled by the
supreme court, then what's the point of even carrying out the charade of
government? The only way to fix this huge gap in the charter is to FIX IT,
which will require an ammendment (or 2) to the charter, and in the meantime
a PM with guts will need to invoke the notwithstanding clause for a period
or 2 until further studies can be carried out to fix this friggin problem,
otherwise this same kind of crap will keep coming up and EVERY TIME
Canadians will feel they're being dictated to by liberal lefty judges and
their personal interpretation of the charter.
I'm not in favour of removing judges or the rule of law, but something has
to be done to control the absolute power that these supreme court judges
have over the country, in fact it is so much power that even the government
claims that nothing can be done once the judges have ruled. It's pathertic,
and in the long run it will lead to revolts and the ultimate dissolution of
our country.
--
Be pro-active, tell the government what you think.
Find out who your member of parliament is
By using your postal code:
http://www.parl.gc.ca/information/about/people/house/PostalCode.asp?Source=SM.
Find contact information for all MPs at:
http://www.parl.gc.ca/common/SenatorsMembers_house.asp?Language=E&Parl=37&Ses=1&Sect=hoccur
>
> According to Mr. Elmasry, polygamy, as practised in Muslim
> countries and by "a few" Canadian Muslims, can be a positive family
force --
> "a husband having a mistress is legal and socially acceptable in Canada,"
he
> said, "and it's irrelevant if the wife knows or not."
>
> He said polygamy can be more moral than a secret affair
because
> the first wife accepts the second wife, and the second wife, and all
> children of the marriages, are treated equally in one family unit.
>
> "Mistresses, and especially kids from a mistress can have big,
> big problems," he said. "It is devastating when a kid cannot say 'This is
my
> father.' "
>
> At the same time, Canada's Catholic primate, Marc Cardinal
> Ouellet, added his voice to a chorus of opposition to the promised
> legislation, warning that same- marriage "could bring in its wake
bitter
> and unpredictable demographic, social, cultural and religious
consequences."
>
> He said that changing the institution of marriage ignores the
> fact "the procreation and education of children, within the context of the
> love of a man and a woman, guarantees the future of society. The union of
> persons of the same cannot make this essential contribution to society
> ..."
>
> "to illustrate his point that children under Muslim polygamy
> fared better than children born into affairs.
>
> Former Toronto mayor Mel Lastman allegedly fathered two sons
> during a secret affair but refused to recognize them as his own. The boys
> said they knew Mr. Lastman only as a friend of their mother. The former
> mayor never confirmed or denied they are his sons but did admit to the
> affair.
>
> And it wasn't until he was close to death that former French
> President Francois Mitterrand caused a scandal when he revealed for the
> first time he had an adult daughter from a long-time lover.
>
> The National Post reported on Wednesday that the federal
agency
> Status of Women Canada (SWC) has launched an urgent study into the legal
and
> social ramifications of polygamy. The agency says its study has been
> motivated by reports of polygamy in the British Columbia community of
> Bountiful, where it is alleged that, in an offshoot of the Mormon
religion,
> girls of aged 14 or 15 have been married to men up to 30 years older.
>
> But critics say the study underscores a deep concern in the
> Martin government that legalized homoual marriage may lead to
> constitutional challenges from minority groups who claim polygamy as a
> religious right.
>
> He said the SWC research project had been commissioned by his
> department only after a request from the B.C. government following
> complaints of polygamy at a religious commune in the province.
>
> "Polygamy is a criminal offence; it is illegal," he said.
> "Same- marriage is constitutional and valid."
>
> However, any Canadian can legally practise polygamy, according
> to Mr. Elmasry.
>
> "You just have to label your second wife a mistress or
> girlfriend," he said. "It could be happening in Canada, but in tax
reporting
> or other official documents the second wife doesn't show up as a second
> wife. So, according to Canadian law, the relationships are legal. But the
> second wife can be the mother of his children and he can give her some
> inheritance and it is perfectly legal also. I don't want to say that there
> are zero cases in our [Muslim] community, but it is very small."
>
>
>
>
> -----
>
> National Post
>
>
> January 22, 2005
>
>
>
>
> It's a strange feeling, as a man, to find myself agreeing with Stephen
> Harper. Changing the definition of marriage could -- rightly -- open up
the
> public debate for a radical redefinition of marriage to include various
> forms, including polygamy.
>
> And why not? As a cultural fact, polygamy isn't all that radical: It has
> enjoyed support throughout history and across the religious and
sociological
> spectrum. Despite the squeamishness of some, there are those who would
> choose this form of family, and who do so already without the blessing of
> the state. And why shouldn't they?
>
> Alex MacLean,
>
> ===
>
> January 21, 2005
> The Spectre of Polygamy
> Re: Don't Fear Polygamy: Muslim Leader, Jan. 21.
> Several years ago, in a teacher-training college in Uganda, we had some
> classroom discussions about polygamy. Many students came from polygamous
> backgrounds and they concurred on one issue: there was always a favourite
> wife, and the children of that wife got preferential treatment.
> Canadian Islamic Congress president Mohamed Elmasry is not being
completely
> up-front about polygamous issues - and particularly why it is always the
man
> who is able to enjoy a number of spouses but not the woman. Why compare a
> worse-case scenario - an extra-marital affair - with polygamy? Is this not
> just admitting that a close, loving relationship with one person is
> preferable?
> Charles Ledger, Peterborough, Ont.
> --
>
> THE CITIZEN
> Latest News
>
>
> Polygamy, the next debate
> Government launches urgent study as same- unions open door to Charter
> challenges claiming plural marriages are a religious right
>
> Chris Cobb
> The Ottawa Citizen
>
>
> Thursday, January 20, 2005
>
>
> Just weeks before it introduces divisive same- marriage legislation,
the
> federal government has launched an urgent study into the legal and social
> ramifications of polygamy.
>
> Critics say the study underscores a deep concern in the Martin government
> that legalized homoual marriage may lead to constitutional challenges
> from minority groups who claim polygamy as a religious right.
>
> It also suggests that the government is suspicious that multi-marriage is
> more commonplace in Canada than widely realized. Polygamy, outlawed in
> Canada but accepted and practised in many countries, typically means a man
> having several wives at the same time.
>
> "In order to best prepare for possible debate surrounding Canada's
polygamy
> policy, critical research is needed," says a Status of Women Canada
> document. "It is vital that researchers explore the impacts of polygamy on
> women and children and gender equality as well as the challenges that
> polygamy presents to society."
>
> Conservative party justice critic Vic Toews says there is a direct link
> between the Status of Women concern and the same- marriage legislation
> due to be introduced by the government in February.
>
> "This government understands it has a problem on its hands," said Mr.
Toews,
> a former Manitoba constitutional lawyer. "What they are looking for is
> evidence to demonstrate that polygamy is inconsistent with Charter and
> Canadian values. If I was a lawyer prosecuting a polygamist that's the
type
> of evidence I would be looking for."
>
> Sayd Mumtaz Ali, president of the Canadian Society of Muslims, said he
> opposes same- marriage but said if it is legalized in Canada,
polygamists
> would also be within their rights to challenge for their choice of family
> life to be legalized.
>
> "This is a liberally minded country with regards to equal rights," said
Mr.
> Ali. "And literally millions live common law."
>
> Multiple marriage is legal in most Muslim countries, he said, but a Muslim
> man who takes more than one wife must prove to a court that he is capable
of
> treating them all equally.
>
> He said he knows of some "but not too many" Muslims who live in Canada
with
> more than one wife but knows of no situation where the wives are
unwilling,
> or unhappy, participants in the arrangement.
>
> But Mr. Ali said he has not detected any significant support among Muslims
> for a constitutional challenge. "To my knowledge there is no plan to push
> for this,' he said.
>
> But when same- marriage becomes legal, the door will open to more
Charter
> challenges, said Conservative critic Mr. Toews. "Once you change the
> definition of marriage from one man and one woman and you move to two
> persons," he said, "what then is the distinction between two persons, or
> three or more persons? If I was a lawyer defending polygamists, I'd say
'hey
> this is a constitutional right, a freedom of religion.' Why can't freedom
of
> religion trump this new definition of marriage?"
>
> Lawyer Peter Hogg, who argued the federal government's case for same-
> marriage at the Supreme Court of Canada, said he doubts legalizing
> homoual marriage will lead to legal challenges from polygamists.
>
>
>
|
|
| | From: | Tom the Canuck | | Subject: | Re: Polgamy: Does the right want to control how we behave? | | Date: | Sun, 23 Jan 2005 17:27:13 -0600 |
|
|
| Basically, the issue for me is one of rights, and truly I believe that the
political right will be on the losing side here. As I posted earlier, Martin
and the left wing media will demonize Harpo for his polygamy statement and
in the end Harpo will be a pile of burning rubble. Martin has his spin
doctors out and they are swarming around Harpo like they were with Stockwell
day.
I just want to remind you that most Canadians already think Harpo is
scary-for whatever reason-and therefore anything that makes him look scarier
is better for the liberals.
You seem to think that harpo's SSM link to polygamy is gonna help him. Well
my sense of people who are in the centre politically (the vast majority of
canadians) is that Harpo stopped sounding reasonable to the middle when he
made this statement.
Harpo was on solid ground when he was saying a)we don't need a referendum-he
even sounded reasonable when he said this; and b)that in his opinion, (even
tho he is wrong, IMHO) the notwithstanding clause didn't have to be used.
But again I repeat my assertion that bringing up polygamy is just not what
Canadians want to hear-its not in the discourse if you will-no matter how
probable (or improbable IMHO) polygamy will be with SSM. And even if
polygamy happens, is that really so bad? If a woman wants polyandry or a man
wants polygyny, and the other parties do too, who am I to say to them you
better not do that? Maybe I'm too laid back, but to me the right seems to
want to CONTROL everyone to behave according to their principles. .
Harpo has to calm down and speak calmly and say "why don't we shoot for the
middle ground," or something like that. People don't listen when someone
starts bringing scenarios that may or may not happen.
Its tragic because the liberals, whom I voted for, and will vote for again,
have no opposition. With Harpo at the helm, the liberals are guaranteed,
with the help of the liberal media, to paint Harpo as an extremist. Harpo is
playing into their game and the fact that you can't see it well I truly
apologize. Personally like I said I wanna see Harpo destroyed and exposed as
the snake he is-but this isn't healthy for our democracy. We need an
effective opposition. Having someone screaming "polygamy is coming," sounds
a little chicken little-because Canadians AREN'T THINKING ABOUT POLYGAMY-no
matter what its likelihood of same.
Finally, I wonder why the right wants to control how I or anyone else
behaves? What gives you the right? To me, the only reason to prevent someone
from doing something is to prevent self or societal harm. There is no
evidence that SSM or polygamy in both its forms will result in harm. I think
the whole issue of polygamy is a red herring, now that I think about it.
Personally I don't like the idea of polygamy but am I gonna dictate how
someone lives? I guess, like most left wing people, there may be some
inconsistencies in my beliefs, but oh well.
Tell me, what gives you the right to tell me who to sleep with? Am I harming
anyone by sleeping with a man or two women, or all three of them?
"neoconÕæ߯" wrote in message
news:10v8angp24f4v9f@corp.supernews.com...
>
>
> "Len McLaughlin" wrote in message
> news:DxUId.216660$Np3.9114083@ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca...
> > All material below fwd. -lm
> >
> > ====
> >
> > The Ottawa Citizen
> >
> >
> > Thursday, January 20, 2005
> >
> >
> > Just weeks before it introduces divisive same- marriage legislation,
> the
> > federal government has launched an urgent study into the legal and
social
> > ramifications of polygamy.
> >
> > Critics say the study underscores a deep concern in the Martin
government
> > that legalized homoual marriage may lead to constitutional challenges
> > from minority groups who claim polygamy as a religious right.
> >
> > It also suggests that the government is suspicious that multi-marriage
is
> > more commonplace in Canada than widely realized. Polygamy, outlawed in
> > Canada but accepted and practised in many countries, typically means a
man
> > having several wives at the same time.
> >
> > "In order to best prepare for possible debate surrounding Canada's
> polygamy
> > policy, critical research is needed," says a Status of Women Canada
> > document. "It is vital that researchers explore the impacts of polygamy
on
> > women and children and gender equality as well as the challenges that
> > polygamy presents to society."
> >
> > ----
> > Polygamy: a natural fit for Canada?
> >
> > Don't fear polygamy: Muslim leader
> > Better than secret affairs, says chief of Canadian congress
> >
> > Chris Cobb and Bob Harvey, with files from Tim Naumetz
> and
> > Philip Authier
> > CanWest News Service
> >
> >
> > January 21, 2005
> >
> >
> > Polygamy among consenting adults is less damaging to
families,
> > and less harmful to children, than secret extra-marital affairs, one of
> > Canada's most prominent Muslims said yesterday.
>
>
> And so it begins..... the liberals are now reaping the seeds of division
and
> "leftyness" that they have been sowing for decades. It's time for them to
> go, it's time for a constitutional ammendment that will enshrine
traditional
> marriage. But more importantly this issue has exemplified the role of the
> judicial decree having more power than the wishes of the people in what's
> supposed to be a democracy. If the house of commons can be over-ruled by
the
> supreme court, then what's the point of even carrying out the charade of
> government? The only way to fix this huge gap in the charter is to FIX IT,
> which will require an ammendment (or 2) to the charter, and in the
meantime
> a PM with guts will need to invoke the notwithstanding clause for a period
> or 2 until further studies can be carried out to fix this friggin problem,
> otherwise this same kind of crap will keep coming up and EVERY TIME
> Canadians will feel they're being dictated to by liberal lefty judges and
> their personal interpretation of the charter.
> I'm not in favour of removing judges or the rule of law, but something has
> to be done to control the absolute power that these supreme court judges
> have over the country, in fact it is so much power that even the
government
> claims that nothing can be done once the judges have ruled. It's
pathertic,
> and in the long run it will lead to revolts and the ultimate dissolution
of
> our country.
>
>
>
>
> --
> Be pro-active, tell the government what you think.
>
> Find out who your member of parliament is
> By using your postal code:
>
http://www.parl.gc.ca/information/about/people/house/PostalCode.asp?Source=SM.
> Find contact information for all MPs at:
>
http://www.parl.gc.ca/common/SenatorsMembers_house.asp?Language=E&Parl=37&Ses=1&Sect=hoccur
>
>
> >
> > According to Mr. Elmasry, polygamy, as practised in Muslim
> > countries and by "a few" Canadian Muslims, can be a positive family
> force --
> > "a husband having a mistress is legal and socially acceptable in
Canada,"
> he
> > said, "and it's irrelevant if the wife knows or not."
> >
> > He said polygamy can be more moral than a secret affair
> because
> > the first wife accepts the second wife, and the second wife, and all
> > children of the marriages, are treated equally in one family unit.
> >
> > "Mistresses, and especially kids from a mistress can have
big,
> > big problems," he said. "It is devastating when a kid cannot say 'This
is
> my
> > father.' "
> >
> > At the same time, Canada's Catholic primate, Marc Cardinal
> > Ouellet, added his voice to a chorus of opposition to the promised
> > legislation, warning that same- marriage "could bring in its wake
> bitter
> > and unpredictable demographic, social, cultural and religious
> consequences."
> >
> > He said that changing the institution of marriage ignores
the
> > fact "the procreation and education of children, within the context of
the
> > love of a man and a woman, guarantees the future of society. The union
of
> > persons of the same cannot make this essential contribution to
society
> > ..."
> >
> > "to illustrate his point that children under Muslim polygamy
> > fared better than children born into affairs.
> >
> > Former Toronto mayor Mel Lastman allegedly fathered two sons
> > during a secret affair but refused to recognize them as his own. The
boys
> > said they knew Mr. Lastman only as a friend of their mother. The former
> > mayor never confirmed or denied they are his sons but did admit to the
> > affair.
> >
> > And it wasn't until he was close to death that former French
> > President Francois Mitterrand caused a scandal when he revealed for the
> > first time he had an adult daughter from a long-time lover.
> >
> > The National Post reported on Wednesday that the federal
> agency
> > Status of Women Canada (SWC) has launched an urgent study into the legal
> and
> > social ramifications of polygamy. The agency says its study has been
> > motivated by reports of polygamy in the British Columbia community of
> > Bountiful, where it is alleged that, in an offshoot of the Mormon
> religion,
> > girls of aged 14 or 15 have been married to men up to 30 years older.
> >
> > But critics say the study underscores a deep concern in the
> > Martin government that legalized homoual marriage may lead to
> > constitutional challenges from minority groups who claim polygamy as a
> > religious right.
> >
> > He said the SWC research project had been commissioned by
his
> > department only after a request from the B.C. government following
> > complaints of polygamy at a religious commune in the province.
> >
> > "Polygamy is a criminal offence; it is illegal," he said.
> > "Same- marriage is constitutional and valid."
> >
> > However, any Canadian can legally practise polygamy,
according
> > to Mr. Elmasry.
> >
> > "You just have to label your second wife a mistress or
> > girlfriend," he said. "It could be happening in Canada, but in tax
> reporting
> > or other official documents the second wife doesn't show up as a second
> > wife. So, according to Canadian law, the relationships are legal. But
the
> > second wife can be the mother of his children and he can give her some
> > inheritance and it is perfectly legal also. I don't want to say that
there
> > are zero cases in our [Muslim] community, but it is very small."
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----
> >
> > National Post
> >
> >
> > January 22, 2005
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > It's a strange feeling, as a man, to find myself agreeing with
Stephen
> > Harper. Changing the definition of marriage could -- rightly -- open up
> the
> > public debate for a radical redefinition of marriage to include various
> > forms, including polygamy.
> >
> > And why not? As a cultural fact, polygamy isn't all that radical: It has
> > enjoyed support throughout history and across the religious and
> sociological
> > spectrum. Despite the squeamishness of some, there are those who would
> > choose this form of family, and who do so already without the blessing
of
> > the state. And why shouldn't they?
> >
> > Alex MacLean,
> >
> > ===
> >
> > January 21, 2005
> > The Spectre of Polygamy
> > Re: Don't Fear Polygamy: Muslim Leader, Jan. 21.
> > Several years ago, in a teacher-training college in Uganda, we had some
> > classroom discussions about polygamy. Many students came from polygamous
> > backgrounds and they concurred on one issue: there was always a
favourite
> > wife, and the children of that wife got preferential treatment.
> > Canadian Islamic Congress president Mohamed Elmasry is not being
> completely
> > up-front about polygamous issues - and particularly why it is always the
> man
> > who is able to enjoy a number of spouses but not the woman. Why compare
a
> > worse-case scenario - an extra-marital affair - with polygamy? Is this
not
> > just admitting that a close, loving relationship with one person is
> > preferable?
> > Charles Ledger, Peterborough, Ont.
> > --
> >
> > THE CITIZEN
> > Latest News
> >
> >
> > Polygamy, the next debate
> > Government launches urgent study as same- unions open door to Charter
> > challenges claiming plural marriages are a religious right
> >
> > Chris Cobb
> > The Ottawa Citizen
> >
> >
> > Thursday, January 20, 2005
> >
> >
> > Just weeks before it introduces divisive same- marriage legislation,
> the
> > federal government has launched an urgent study into the legal and
social
> > ramifications of polygamy.
> >
> > Critics say the study underscores a deep concern in the Martin
government
> > that legalized homoual marriage may lead to constitutional challenges
> > from minority groups who claim polygamy as a religious right.
> >
> > It also suggests that the government is suspicious that multi-marriage
is
> > more commonplace in Canada than widely realized. Polygamy, outlawed in
> > Canada but accepted and practised in many countries, typically means a
man
> > having several wives at the same time.
> >
> > "In order to best prepare for possible debate surrounding Canada's
> polygamy
> > policy, critical research is needed," says a Status of Women Canada
> > document. "It is vital that researchers explore the impacts of polygamy
on
> > women and children and gender equality as well as the challenges that
> > polygamy presents to society."
> >
> > Conservative party justice critic Vic Toews says there is a direct link
> > between the Status of Women concern and the same- marriage
legislation
> > due to be introduced by the government in February.
> >
> > "This government understands it has a problem on its hands," said Mr.
> Toews,
> > a former Manitoba constitutional lawyer. "What they are looking for is
> > evidence to demonstrate that polygamy is inconsistent with Charter and
> > Canadian values. If I was a lawyer prosecuting a polygamist that's the
> type
> > of evidence I would be looking for."
> >
> > Sayd Mumtaz Ali, president of the Canadian Society of Muslims, said he
> > opposes same- marriage but said if it is legalized in Canada,
> polygamists
> > would also be within their rights to challenge for their choice of
family
> > life to be legalized.
> >
> > "This is a liberally minded country with regards to equal rights," said
> Mr.
> > Ali. "And literally millions live common law."
> >
> > Multiple marriage is legal in most Muslim countries, he said, but a
Muslim
> > man who takes more than one wife must prove to a court that he is
capable
> of
> > treating them all equally.
> >
> > He said he knows of some "but not too many" Muslims who live in Canada
> with
> > more than one wife but knows of no situation where the wives are
> unwilling,
> > or unhappy, participants in the arrangement.
> >
> > But Mr. Ali said he has not detected any significant support among
Muslims
> > for a constitutional challenge. "To my knowledge there is no plan to
push
> > for this,' he said.
> >
> > But when same- marriage becomes legal, the door will open to more
> Charter
> > challenges, said Conservative critic Mr. Toews. "Once you change the
> > definition of marriage from one man and one woman and you move to two
> > persons," he said, "what then is the distinction between two persons, or
> > three or more persons? If I was a lawyer defending polygamists, I'd say
> 'hey
> > this is a constitutional right, a freedom of religion.' Why can't
freedom
> of
> > religion trump this new definition of marriage?"
> >
> > Lawyer Peter Hogg, who argued the federal government's case for same-
> > marriage at the Supreme Court of Canada, said he doubts legalizing
> > homoual marriage will lead to legal challenges from polygamists.
> >
> >
> >
>
>
|
|
| | From: | \The Right One\ | | Subject: | Re: Polgamy: Does the right want to control how we behave? | | Date: | Sun, 23 Jan 2005 23:51:56 GMT |
|
|
|
"Tom the Canuck" wrote in message
news:LoWId.14735$Ka6.101715@news1.mts.net...
Sez:
"Basically, the issue for me is all rights, and no responsibility."
--
Terry Pearson
http://www.rightpoint.org
There are two types of values
in Canada. Moral and Liberal.
|
|
|
