I didn't see anyone mention this yet, so I might as well start the thread.
This is a terrible disaster of unimaginable grief and surprize.

Last count, upwards of 60,000 dead. Although not to compare a natural
disaster with an act of hostility, but when we hear of post-traumatic stress
disorder after things like the Gulf War, we can understand the effect it can
have, seeing death all about. They will have to find another label to put on
this type of trauma, and the years of nightmares it will create.
(I wouldn't say that I had a nightmare, but my sleep was disturbed just
thinking about the Tsunami Disaster)

Points to consider :
You were vacationing; making breakfast; taking public transit to the see the
sights; waking the kids.

No warning; no time; no previous experience to understand what was happening
anyway.

Your child disappeared; your spouse, mother, father, friend, missing in an
instant.

Hearing thousands scream as they were washed away, no way to help them if
you could. Strong swimmers were crushed against other objects and buildings.

You were waiting to use the bathroom after getting out of bed. There is no
bathroom. Thousands like you, are also without a bathroom, you didn't get
your breakfast, there is nowhere to get food now, you are dehydrated in the
heat, and there is no drinking water. The ground is wet everywhere, the
humidity is unbearable, there is rotting smell everywhere.

Fish, animals, and human bodies, rotting everywhere. You want to find your
children, you cannot bear to look when you find them. Arms stretched out,
reaching for something to hold onto, limbs torn off, agony on their faces.
Trying to take pictures of the faces, to preserve for records of confirmed
death. The need to bury the dead immediately, before some are identified.
The faces already too blue-grey and bloated to recognize.

Survivors trying to leave the disaster area, still not knowing the fate of
others, the new friends they made while on vacation are gone. They drowned
in their own hotel bathroom, while brushing their teeth after getting up.
You all went to a vacation resort after saving for years to make this the
most memorable Christmas Vacation ever. It surely will be. How will you
erase the memories of horror.

Remember we incorrectly used the word TERROR as in Terror Attacts (Terrorist
Attacks would be more precise). A minor loss, caused by hostilities that
could somehow have been prevented, if we really loved our fellow man. Well,
now our fellow man, woman and child have brutally died. This trauma will
outlive the survivors. It will be felt world wide, and the names could be
scrawled from the base of the CN tower to the antenna, and there would still
be names that are never accounted for.

I know I gave up a lot of hard earned cash for Christmas, but I still have
my family, my health, and a little of my sanity. I think I have to dig deep
and find out how much I can contribute to those in need. Its time I did my
little bit, no one will ever really know (in those countries), that one
person, or thousands that can gave financial aid, but we know.

If you have it, if you think you can do without it, to help reduce the
continued suffering, and further loss, I would implore you to try, ....

At least the last time, God warned us well in advance, unfortunately, only
Noah listened...

-= Rasta =-

Dancetime DJ Services
Weddings - Banquets - Private Parties - Karaoke
http://www.geocities.com/dancetimedjservices/

From:	Paul
Subject:	Re: -=Incredible Loss in Asia=-
Date:	Wed, 29 Dec 2004 08:15:02 -0500

Dancetime DJ Services wrote:
> I didn't see anyone mention this yet, so I might as well start the thread.
> This is a terrible disaster of unimaginable grief and surprize.
>

> If you have it, if you think you can do without it, to help reduce the
> continued suffering, and further loss, I would implore you to try, ....
>
> At least the last time, God warned us well in advance, unfortunately, only
> Noah listened...
>
>
> -= Rasta =-
>
> Dancetime DJ Services
> Weddings - Banquets - Private Parties - Karaoke
> http://www.geocities.com/dancetimedjservices/
>
>
Rasta, I'm afraid I just don't buy into any of this "we must act now and
send all our money to Asia" melodrama. I agree the human loss is
shocking, but really, it is hard for me to feel sorry for those who
won't help themselves, or who refuse aid when it is offered. For
example, the Sri Lankans have already turned down an Israeli offer of
assistance, because they didn't like the perceived "military
composition" of the 150-man relief force that was ready to fly to the
stricken zone. Speaking of Sri Lanka, I loved this response I read on
the Net: They got a 1.5 hour lead time phone call of the impending tidal
wave. The Sri Lankan answer was "well who do you want me to call, the
Tamils"? Instead she sat on the call and watched the carnage that followed.

Also Rasta, these countries were told 12 years ago to get an early
warning system set up. The Pacific ocean had one. The cost was minimal,
about $1.5 million. The World Health Organization and World Bank were
just 2 organizations that urged preventative maintenance as a cure for
disasters such as this. These countries are not poor either. Life is too
idyllic and they would carry on. Well, they are carrying on now.

Rasta, this is a coastal problem. A mile inshore there is no
devastation, just business as usual. Countries like India go through
this twice a year during monsoon season. This is a cake walk for them.
The same with Malaysia. I watched tv coverage too. I saw the million
dollar homes on the Sri Lankan coast that were devestated. Really, set
aside the deaths and I have to wonder what the problems really are
like. Walk a mile inshore to safety and dry land. These people cannot
get drinking water and food? Baloney!! The tourist industry is what got
hit. Not countries. Just water front.

My point Rasta, is that these countries are not 3rd world. India is
highly industrialized and is on a par with China. Malaysia is wealthy
also. Sri Lanka has had a civil war raging for 20 years but their loss
was just a stretch of beach about 14 miles long. I do not minimize the
loss of life but it was instant and is now over. If these people need
water they can walk a mile inland. This is way overblown by our media.
The agencies are using this as a means to raise money. They are not
needed over there.

From:	Dancetime DJ Services
Subject:	Re: -=Incredible Loss in Asia=-
Date:	Wed, 29 Dec 2004 17:16:17 GMT

See what you made me do Paul, now I have to respond, almost line by line....

> Rasta, I'm afraid I just don't buy into any of this "we must act now and
> send all our money to Asia" melodrama. I agree the human loss is

Body's are decomposing. Two days is a long time to go without a bathroom,
even for a rum drinker like me. I was never fond of water, but apparently,
some people think we need some 7 glasses a day... even one glass a day, for
those in need, is a million pounds of weight to transport, even within their
own country where the water is good.

> shocking, but really, it is hard for me to feel sorry for those who won't
> help themselves, or who refuse aid when it is offered. For example, the
> Sri Lankans have already turned down an Israeli offer of

Did you get the name of the person who refused it? I hope so, because none
of those screaming parents and children on the TV refused it. Someone in a
nice dry office with Piat D'or aplenty, turned down the relief. Apparently
the equivilant of Prime Minister in their country wasn't much better than
the one we picked in Canada. He won't even let the US test weapons in
Canada.. Sheesh.. The Newfie's probably won't care, as long as the US stayS
out of Newfoundland

> assistance, because they didn't like the perceived "military composition"
> of the 150-man relief force that was ready to fly to the stricken zone.
> Speaking of Sri Lanka, I loved this response I read on

Dear Saddam Hussain. WE would like to send a small military relief troop
into your country to *HELP* it. Whatta ya think? Who wants someone else's
military in their country,. And why do we need them to send troops.. They
may only need money, not years indebted to foreign nations.

> the Net: They got a 1.5 hour lead time phone call of the impending tidal
> wave. The Sri Lankan answer was "well who do you want me to call, the
> Tamils"? Instead she sat on the call and watched the carnage that
> followed

Remember 911? What was the president's response when he was under attack..
Ah.. lemme think.. Do you really think it is an attack.. oh, look, there is
another plane crash.. I blame Boeing... I did not hear the stories that you
did, and I certainly question all sources (unless it comes from Michael
Moore himself) that the Sri Lankan's really did that... Well, at least one
of the millions of them in the country made that decision. If they have free
elections.. they might not get back in power.. er.. if the family has ever
given up *the power*.. its not like Soviet Russia is backing the
opposition..

> Also Rasta, these countries were told 12 years ago to get an early warning
> system set up. The Pacific ocean had one. The cost was minimal, about $1.5
> million. The World Health Organization and World Bank were just 2
> organizations that urged preventative maintenance as a cure for disasters
> such as this. These countries are not poor either. Life is too idyllic and
> they would carry on. Well, they are carrying on now.

Right up to last news report I heard, there was no similar risk like the
Pacific. There is now.. Maybe we should have an early warning around
Newfoundland.. Or better yet, were we not told before the CN tower was
built, that it lies on a fault line across Lake Ontario? See any early
warnings being setup, to warn the people within a mile of the tower, that it
could come down, if there is an earthquake. See the PM spending any money on
the warning system? Not until we resolve the Gay Marriage Issue, will we get
concerned with public safety. Ever see a guardrail get installed after two
or three road deaths at the same site? We, like many other countries, have
elected officials, who breach promises, spend our money, do not look out for
Health Care, Safety, or Defense. We should have known years ago, that the
British Subs were unsafe. Those Canadians have no one to blame but
themselves... You can see where I am going with this. For every excuse you
use, it does not *cut it*, with regard to those in need. I didn't buy the
subs.. I didn't even get the guy in parliment that I thought would fix the
defence spending. If I did, I'd still be fighting to get him out, cause we
know no matter who is there, will not fulfill all election promises.. So,
those other mismanaged countries are in the same boat (in a manner of
speaking). The can't shoot the government, and no one was down in the Market
asking the lady with the cold sores on her face to sign the agreement for
international aid... its a hoax Paul. They fooled you too....

WE are looked at as a Rich Nation too Paul. I remember seeing kids eat hot
dog weiners from the city dump when I was a *teen. Those kids didn't get
rich when they closed the dump, they just got moved out or died.. *We* does
not encompass the whole village, city or even province,. Cape Bretoner's
would love to have the Tim Horton jobs in Toronto, and Newfoundlanders would
love to fish off the Sunny Pacific... We have our own homeless, poverty,
diverse opinions and priorities. Ottawa won't share the wealth with
Newfoundland, but yet they had homeless camped out in front of City Hall all
summer. They are no longer homeless. In the winter months, Santa brings them
a new Condo..

When we had floods in Quebec, I don't know why we sent aid from all over
Canada. Its not like they consider themselves Canadian at any other time of
the year.. Well, from what the media would tell us, all Quebecois are rich
and indifferent. But when I lived in Quebec, I found they weren't all that
bad.. Maybe my news sources are only as reliable as my Government..

> The agencies are using this as a means to raise money. They are not
> needed over there.

Those people in Quebec, Ice Storms in Ontario, and the very wealthy New York
city, probably didn't need money either. I think that statement is untrue.
We know the media misleads us, but we, who have been called on to provide
aid in the past, might mention that there things that their own country can
afford, but may not spend money on... public safety for example, but others
will. Its a discretionary interest, some will support, some won't, within,
and without. I partially agree with a few things, like the country being
quite rich, and being forewarned. Any idea why we have so many of them in
Toronto? We don't have that kind of wealth, freedom, or pure drinking water
in some areas. Who is going to pay for the Cancer Causing Sydney Tar Ponds..
? Wouldn't happen here, we have an early warning system in place....

....steps back off soap box...

--
-= Rasta =-

Dancetime DJ Services
Weddings - Banquets - Private Parties - Karaoke
http://www.geocities.com/dancetimedjservices/

From:	Paul
Subject:	Re: -=Incredible Loss in Asia=-
Date:	Wed, 29 Dec 2004 17:20:23 -0500

Dancetime DJ Services wrote:
> See what you made me do Paul, now I have to respond, almost line by line....
>
>
>>Rasta, I'm afraid I just don't buy into any of this "we must act now and
>>send all our money to Asia" melodrama. I agree the human loss is
>
>
> Body's are decomposing. Two days is a long time to go without a bathroom,
> even for a rum drinker like me. I was never fond of water, but apparently,
> some people think we need some 7 glasses a day... even one glass a day, for
> those in need, is a million pounds of weight to transport, even within their
> own country where the water is good.
>
>
>
>>shocking, but really, it is hard for me to feel sorry for those who won't
>>help themselves, or who refuse aid when it is offered. For example, the
>>Sri Lankans have already turned down an Israeli offer of
>
>
> Did you get the name of the person who refused it? I hope so, because none
> of those screaming parents and children on the TV refused it. Someone in a
> nice dry office with Piat D'or aplenty, turned down the relief. Apparently
> the equivilant of Prime Minister in their country wasn't much better than
> the one we picked in Canada. He won't even let the US test weapons in
> Canada.. Sheesh.. The Newfie's probably won't care, as long as the US stayS
> out of Newfoundland
>
>
>>assistance, because they didn't like the perceived "military composition"
>>of the 150-man relief force that was ready to fly to the stricken zone.
>>Speaking of Sri Lanka, I loved this response I read on
>
>
> Dear Saddam Hussain. WE would like to send a small military relief troop
> into your country to *HELP* it. Whatta ya think? Who wants someone else's
> military in their country,. And why do we need them to send troops.. They
> may only need money, not years indebted to foreign nations.
>
>
>
>>the Net: They got a 1.5 hour lead time phone call of the impending tidal
>>wave. The Sri Lankan answer was "well who do you want me to call, the
>>Tamils"? Instead she sat on the call and watched the carnage that
>>followed
>
>
> Remember 911? What was the president's response when he was under attack..
> Ah.. lemme think.. Do you really think it is an attack.. oh, look, there is
> another plane crash.. I blame Boeing... I did not hear the stories that you
> did, and I certainly question all sources (unless it comes from Michael
> Moore himself) that the Sri Lankan's really did that... Well, at least one
> of the millions of them in the country made that decision. If they have free
> elections.. they might not get back in power.. er.. if the family has ever
> given up *the power*.. its not like Soviet Russia is backing the
> opposition..
>
>
>>Also Rasta, these countries were told 12 years ago to get an early warning
>>system set up. The Pacific ocean had one. The cost was minimal, about $1.5
>>million. The World Health Organization and World Bank were just 2
>>organizations that urged preventative maintenance as a cure for disasters
>>such as this. These countries are not poor either. Life is too idyllic and
>>they would carry on. Well, they are carrying on now.
>
>
> Right up to last news report I heard, there was no similar risk like the
> Pacific. There is now.. Maybe we should have an early warning around
> Newfoundland.. Or better yet, were we not told before the CN tower was
> built, that it lies on a fault line across Lake Ontario? See any early
> warnings being setup, to warn the people within a mile of the tower, that it
> could come down, if there is an earthquake. See the PM spending any money on
> the warning system? Not until we resolve the Gay Marriage Issue, will we get
> concerned with public safety. Ever see a guardrail get installed after two
> or three road deaths at the same site? We, like many other countries, have
> elected officials, who breach promises, spend our money, do not look out for
> Health Care, Safety, or Defense. We should have known years ago, that the
> British Subs were unsafe. Those Canadians have no one to blame but
> themselves... You can see where I am going with this. For every excuse you
> use, it does not *cut it*, with regard to those in need. I didn't buy the
> subs.. I didn't even get the guy in parliment that I thought would fix the
> defence spending. If I did, I'd still be fighting to get him out, cause we
> know no matter who is there, will not fulfill all election promises.. So,
> those other mismanaged countries are in the same boat (in a manner of
> speaking). The can't shoot the government, and no one was down in the Market
> asking the lady with the cold sores on her face to sign the agreement for
> international aid... its a hoax Paul. They fooled you too....
>
> WE are looked at as a Rich Nation too Paul. I remember seeing kids eat hot
> dog weiners from the city dump when I was a *teen. Those kids didn't get
> rich when they closed the dump, they just got moved out or died.. *We* does
> not encompass the whole village, city or even province,. Cape Bretoner's
> would love to have the Tim Horton jobs in Toronto, and Newfoundlanders would
> love to fish off the Sunny Pacific... We have our own homeless, poverty,
> diverse opinions and priorities. Ottawa won't share the wealth with
> Newfoundland, but yet they had homeless camped out in front of City Hall all
> summer. They are no longer homeless. In the winter months, Santa brings them
> a new Condo..
>
> When we had floods in Quebec, I don't know why we sent aid from all over
> Canada. Its not like they consider themselves Canadian at any other time of
> the year.. Well, from what the media would tell us, all Quebecois are rich
> and indifferent. But when I lived in Quebec, I found they weren't all that
> bad.. Maybe my news sources are only as reliable as my Government..
>
>
>>The agencies are using this as a means to raise money. They are not
>>needed over there.
>
>
> Those people in Quebec, Ice Storms in Ontario, and the very wealthy New York
> city, probably didn't need money either. I think that statement is untrue.
> We know the media misleads us, but we, who have been called on to provide
> aid in the past, might mention that there things that their own country can
> afford, but may not spend money on... public safety for example, but others
> will. Its a discretionary interest, some will support, some won't, within,
> and without. I partially agree with a few things, like the country being
> quite rich, and being forewarned. Any idea why we have so many of them in
> Toronto? We don't have that kind of wealth, freedom, or pure drinking water
> in some areas. Who is going to pay for the Cancer Causing Sydney Tar Ponds..
> ? Wouldn't happen here, we have an early warning system in place....
>
>
> ...steps back off soap box...
>
....gets up onto Rasta's soap box... As usual, we're not going to change
each other's opinion, nor will the issues be resolved in this NG, but
gee, I didn't know you were such a left-wing bleeding heart. Rasta,
where is all the money that we should be pouring into the homeless and
jobless situations right here in Canada? You can sink all the money in
the world into third world countries and it won't help. They'll still
be looking for handouts when the money's gone. As I said, if people
over there are hungry or thirsty, simply move a mile or so inland, where
life goes on. This is simply a coastal area, beach problem. It's
simply God's way of culling the herd. I'm over it already.

From:	Dancetime DJ Services
Subject:	Re: -=Incredible Loss in Asia=-
Date:	Thu, 30 Dec 2004 10:27:31 GMT

>> ...steps back off soap box...
>>
> ...gets up onto Rasta's soap box... As usual, we're not going to change
> each other's opinion, nor will the issues be resolved in this NG, but gee,
> I didn't know you were such a left-wing bleeding heart. Rasta, where is
> all the money that we should be pouring into the homeless and jobless
> situations right here in Canada? You can sink all the money in the world
> into third world countries and it won't help. They'll still be looking
> for handouts when the money's gone. As I said, if people over there are
> hungry or thirsty, simply move a mile or so inland, where life goes on.
> This is simply a coastal area, beach problem. It's simply God's way of
> culling the herd. I'm over it already.

Paul;

My sister is the left-wing bleeding heart, not me. I didn't lose any
sleep when the there were strikes and boycotts in Sports.. No sirrie..
Sports is a complete waste of time and money, and makes couch potatoes out
of its viewers. It creates the dreaded Hockey Moms (I have no idea how such
dangerously hateful women got to be moms), causes fellow human beings to
beat the crap out of each other, makes lame employees come to work tired
from watching overtime. Hey, the time is up, every shake hands, CYA next
year to finish the game. (OK, separate Rant, we can do this later)

That kinda thinking is what put so many Newfoundlanders and Capers in
Toronto., moved inland a few miles where life goes on. In an argumentative
way of sorts, I like your choice of "culling the herd", because in some
countries, where overpopulation is a problem, education is limited and AIDS
is killing many, I have thought this "Culling" might be what is happening.
But, this wasn't a whole bunch of people not following God's plan (or Paul's
plan) and installing early warning, and living as farmers instead of
fishermen. This was a tragic, unexpected, totally unprepared disaster.
"Coulda, Shoulda, Woulda" doesn't mean a damned thing. Ever get a speeding
ticket? I'll never do that again.... HAHA.. I walked 8 months and paid in
excess of 500 bucks for duplicating my speeding habits. I know better, heck,
I was retested with two driving instructors in the car, and it was pointed
out to me that I was also speeding during the test. Old habits die hard.
(They said I was a good driver, by the way, just too fast, and gave me back
my license). If I am killed in a Car Accident down the road, Paul will be
the guy who states the obvious. He was speeding.. He's said it many times
before.. He speeds. His own damned fault, he knew speeding was against the
law, and he did it anyway. Serves him right.. (and the fact is, I might have
been killed by a big truck of relief supplies going through a red light)
OK, back to the present...

You realize, real or perceived, your views are in the minority. Someday,
we may all be as enlightened, but I feel that I have seen (and done) quite a
bit in my life, and while not being a sports fan, big into politics, or
world affairs, I can still spot a disaster when I need to. And I can
recognize Media Hype, and Media inaccuracies. Both before, and during the
disaster. If this disaster took place in Canada, the Americans could just
come across the border and rename the Provinces into States... As I already
stated, you cannot blame the entire country for the mistakes of a few. We
have seen blunders in our own country's management which has cost life and
jobs, whined about it, and carried on. And most of our blunders were
entirely preventable, anticipated, and within our power to change. Those in
Asia were not. We could have saved a few with early warning.. as many as
were awake, with their running shoes on. Did you get your bomb shelter
built yet? We suspect the terrorists might target Canada... we have been
warned... Who will feel sorry for us, if that sort of thing ever happens...?

-= Rasta =-

Dancetime DJ Services
Weddings - Banquets - Private Parties - Karaoke
http://www.geocities.com/dancetimedjservices/

From:	Paul
Subject:	Re: -=Incredible Loss in Asia=-
Date:	Fri, 31 Dec 2004 09:46:08 -0500

Dancetime DJ Services wrote:
We suspect the terrorists might target Canada... we have been
> warned... Who will feel sorry for us, if that sort of thing ever happens...?
>
>
>
>
> -= Rasta =-

>

Rasta, you make an excellent point re:"Who will feel sorry for us"? How
many countries (other than Canada) came to the aid of the USA when 5
hurricanes slammed into Florida last summer? How many countries sent
money or aid to Peterborough and Edmonton when both experienced massive
flooding last July? What countries send aid to the US to clean up after
tornadoes, flooding on the Mississippi, major fires in California, etc?

These other countries are the first to criticize American economics and
foreign policy, but are also the first in line with their hands out at
the least sign of adversity. World hunger and AIDS get blamed on the
West because we won't keep pouring good money after bad into relief
efforts that are purloined by corrupt warlords, or we won't force our
pharmaceutical companies to make medicine available free of charge to
the Third World. Here's a news bulletin for all you Ethiopians: "You're
starving and can't grow food because YOU LIVE IN A FUCKING DESERT"!!! I
am so sick of left wingers telling me I won a lottery, by virtue of
being born in North America and then trying to inflict guilt on us for
the ills of the Third World. It's nearly as bad as our own Canadian
natives telling me I should make restitution for the supposed sins of my
forefathers. Over my dead body. I may be in the minority, but I am
entitled to my opinion, as callous, uninformed and right wing as you and
young Sammy may perceive it.

Having said that, the three of us are likely decent enough guys who, if
we were neighbours, would probably also be friends. Hey, I like rum as
much as the next guy.

Paul

From:	Dancetime DJ Services
Subject:	Re: -=Incredible Loss in Asia=-
Date:	Fri, 31 Dec 2004 15:33:23 GMT

Paul;

> Rasta, you make an excellent point re:"Who will feel sorry for us"? How

This works, but my comment wasn't intended to examine how many times we
provide aid, and how seldom we could expect aid in return. My comment was
playing "Devil's Advocate" to your comments about people we should not feel
sorry for, when they could have done something, because they were
forewarned. If we were forewarned about a terrorist attack, and then it
happens, by your comparison, no one should feel sorry for us, since we were
warned, and took no action.

No single person, or even group, can be held accountable for the actions of
the few in power. Did you see the appeals of the people on TV with the
governments of the Asian country, that didn't even want them to fly in and
assess the situation? What is he afraid of, giving away military secrets? of
blatant disregard for human life? of atrocities not seen since Nazi Europe?
No, he's just an idiot. But he makes the decisions, and we can not help
those that want help because of his decisions (or lack of them). Its kinda
frustrating. Imagine going into someone's country uninvited, at a time when
there is an immense disaster, and getting shot out of the sky by the
airforce for invading their country.. Sheesh.. We can see the reason they
are like this, we cannot fathom their beliefs, principles, etc. and we don't
have time to examine them right at this moment. But I hope the world puts
pressure on them for many years, in sanctions for all but humanitarian
reasons. They let people in great mass suffer unnecessarily. They add to the
problem, and we should avoid future trade agreements with countries that
stubborn.

> the Third World. Here's a news bulletin for all you Ethiopians: "You're
> starving and can't grow food because YOU LIVE IN A mmmmm DESERT"!!! I

Now Paul.. Have a drink of rum and calm down. We are still in a public
reading room, gargle with some Capt Morgan and watch your potty mouth..
Ethiopians... Hmm.. They are from Texas, aren't they? Regardless, let's
play the Devil's Advocate game again. Its now 2006, and a huge fault line
under Lake Ontario moves. The lake does its little Tsuanami, washing Spadina
all the way to North York (its a filthy area anyway). The CN Tower falls
like a matchstick. Thousands are injured in the quake, as many more, killed
by the falling tower, and fires caused by the collapse and building damage.
Fire trucks can't get to the affected areas, because the tower is blocking
the path, the phones are jammed, chaos everywhere, hundreds of tourists (who
were in the tower) are missing. The area is unstable, more quakes are
suspected. We need troops, medical aid, help from neighbours. You have
missing friends and family in the area, and you are distraught. And then you
hear it.. Someone says "Serves them right, they were told about the fault
line when they built the CN tower. Marine Biologists took pictures of the
fault cracks under Lake Ontario. If the lake were drained, the natural fault
line would be a waterfalls that would make Niagra look like a brook. (I was
on one of those exploration trips with marine biologists, by the way). So,
its their own fault for living in a known dangerous area. How stupid are
those people in Toronto to build a Stock Exchange right in the area of the
flood waters and path of the damage by the tower. Those Canadian's don't
need help anyway. they are a rich Country, and just down the road in Ottawa,
they hoard all the money. If they just spent some of it on research and
built the community up near Barrie, where it was safer, we would not have
this tragic result"

SO, what I was trying to state before, was a WHAT IF situation, if the roles
were reversed. Someone would say the same about us, that we (you) say about
them. There wasn't a problem in Asia back in November. Christmas was nice,
why do you think so many foreigners were vacationing there.... Because it
was like Paradise.. Earthquake, Smirkquake... why worry today, when you can
worry tomorrow..,. Even the "smarter-than-us" people were caught by
surprize. I sure hope when God smites Canada, its in Toronto, and not
Halifax. No one would ever send Canada's riches to the East Coast in relief
support.

Well, as we have said before, I won't change your opinion, and you won't
change mine... but I'll raise a glass of Captain Morgan and wish you the
best of health and weath throughout the new year... You too Sam.. and all
you other lurkers... Just the rum drinkers though.. I am not toasting with
any of you Pepsi or Coke suckers..

.... remind me about Native rights in the New Year..

.......Vegetarians eat vegetables-Beware of humanitarians

-= Rasta =-

Dancetime DJ Services
Weddings - Banquets - Private Parties - Karaoke
http://www.geocities.com/dancetimedjservices/

From:	Toni
Subject:	Re: -=Incredible Loss in Asia=-
Date:	Sun, 2 Jan 2005 17:12:08 -0500

"Dancetime DJ Services" wrote in message
news:7jeBd.202445$Np3.8464976@ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca...

> ... remind me about Native rights in the New Year..

'Tis the New Year ...

wrcn
.... every good girl loves a sailor ...

From:	Dancetime DJ Services
Subject:	Re: -=The Wrath Of Toni=-
Date:	Mon, 03 Jan 2005 00:14:56 GMT

>> ... remind me about Native rights in the New Year..
> 'Tis the New Year ...

Well, I'm to scared to say anything now Toni. You've been to Slackers.. I
might not be able to come back from Ottawa....
Well, the target on back has got to be smaller than Paul's... here goes..

Let me start Tony by saying I agree with your comments thus far...

Indian nations were not without conflict... With other tribes, and even the
white man.
All war and conflict is based on the Strongest Guy Wins theory. That doesn't
make it right, but there isn't a stronger tribe waiting over the hill
anymore. I think, based on the white man's past performance, that we are a
pack of liars for the many treaties we broke, but I wasn't there at the
time, but I don't believe that all first nations reacted like that meek
mannered Chief on the Lakota commercial.

The issue I was going to make, is that when we do offer them compensations
for the sins of our forefathers, they want the best of both worlds. They
want the white man technology to overfish, overhunt, and the ability to do
it just like they did in the days when it fed their family. Anytime of year.
Now its poacher heaven out there. How much tobacco are they producing, to be
able to sell it at reduced prices. Their forefathers would never have shot
the last buffalo, but the white man would. When Natives behave like the
white man, while screaming of the injustices, I think they stop being
recognized as true natives.

You can't have your cake and eat it too.
Either you are Native, or you aren't.. Pick what you want to be, and be it.

.... oh, BTW, I have relatives with Native blood. They can't be that pure,
they can grow full beards, but they get some benifits..

-= Rasta =-

Dancetime DJ Services
Weddings - Banquets - Private Parties - Karaoke
http://www.geocities.com/dancetimedjservices/

From:	Paul
Subject:	Re: -=Incredible Loss in Asia=-
Date:	Fri, 31 Dec 2004 11:32:06 -0500

Dancetime DJ Services wrote:
> Paul;
>
>
>>Rasta, you make an excellent point re:"Who will feel sorry for us"? How
>
>
> This works, but my comment wasn't intended to examine how many times we
> provide aid, and how seldom we could expect aid in return. My comment was
> playing "Devil's Advocate" to your comments about people we should not feel
> sorry for, when they could have done something, because they were
> forewarned.

No need to elaborate. I know exactly what you are trying to say. We're
just batting the shuttlecock back and forth over the net.
If we were forewarned about a terrorist attack, and then it
> happens, by your comparison, no one should feel sorry for us, since we were
> warned, and took no action.
>
> No single person, or even group, can be held accountable for the actions of
> the few in power. Did you see the appeals of the people on TV with the
> governments of the Asian country, that didn't even want them to fly in and
> assess the situation?

Yes I did. Don't elect the guy if you aren't prepared to live with the
consequences of his decisions.
What is he afraid of, giving away military secrets? of
> blatant disregard for human life? of atrocities not seen since Nazi Europe?
> No, he's just an idiot. But he makes the decisions, and we can not help
> those that want help because of his decisions (or lack of them). Its kinda
> frustrating. Imagine going into someone's country uninvited,

You mean like Iraq???

at a time when
> there is an immense disaster, and getting shot out of the sky by the
> airforce for invading their country.. Sheesh.. We can see the reason they
> are like this, we cannot fathom their beliefs, principles, etc. and we don't
> have time to examine them right at this moment. But I hope the world puts
> pressure on them for many years, in sanctions for all but humanitarian
> reasons. They let people in great mass suffer unnecessarily. They add to the
> problem, and we should avoid future trade agreements with countries that
> stubborn.
>
>
>
>
>>the Third World. Here's a news bulletin for all you Ethiopians: "You're
>>starving and can't grow food because YOU LIVE IN A mmmmm DESERT"!!! I
>
>
> Now Paul.. Have a drink of rum and calm down. We are still in a public
> reading room, gargle with some Capt Morgan and watch your potty mouth..
> Ethiopians... Hmm.. They are from Texas, aren't they? Regardless, let's
> play the Devil's Advocate game again. Its now 2006, and a huge fault line
> under Lake Ontario moves. The lake does its little Tsuanami, washing Spadina
> all the way to North York (its a filthy area anyway). The CN Tower falls
> like a matchstick. Thousands are injured in the quake, as many more, killed
> by the falling tower, and fires caused by the collapse and building damage.
> Fire trucks can't get to the affected areas, because the tower is blocking
> the path, the phones are jammed, chaos everywhere, hundreds of tourists (who
> were in the tower) are missing. The area is unstable, more quakes are
> suspected. We need troops, medical aid, help from neighbours. You have
> missing friends and family in the area, and you are distraught. And then you
> hear it.. Someone says "Serves them right, they were told about the fault
> line when they built the CN tower. Marine Biologists took pictures of the
> fault cracks under Lake Ontario. If the lake were drained, the natural fault
> line would be a waterfalls that would make Niagra look like a brook. (I was
> on one of those exploration trips with marine biologists, by the way). So,
> its their own fault for living in a known dangerous area. How stupid are
> those people in Toronto to build a Stock Exchange right in the area of the
> flood waters and path of the damage by the tower. Those Canadian's don't
> need help anyway. they are a rich Country, and just down the road in Ottawa,
> they hoard all the money. If they just spent some of it on research and
> built the community up near Barrie, where it was safer, we would not have
> this tragic result"
>
> SO, what I was trying to state before, was a WHAT IF situation, if the roles
> were reversed. Someone would say the same about us, that we (you) say about
> them.

I'd say as long as it drowned all those asian gangs, tamils, vietnamese
and Jamaicans who have totally turned Toronto from the best city in
Canada to the most dangerous, then any amount of collateral damage is a
price worth paying...
There wasn't a problem in Asia back in November. Christmas was nice,
> why do you think so many foreigners were vacationing there.... Because it
> was like Paradise.. Earthquake, Smirkquake... why worry today, when you can
> worry tomorrow..,. Even the "smarter-than-us" people were caught by
> surprize. I sure hope when God smites Canada, its in Toronto, and not
> Halifax. No one would ever send Canada's riches to the East Coast in relief
> support.

Come on pal, lots of my tax money is being channeled into Quebec and the
Maritimes, as supposed "have not" provinces.
>
> Well, as we have said before, I won't change your opinion, and you won't
> change mine... but I'll raise a glass of Captain Morgan and wish you the
> best of health and weath throughout the new year... You too Sam.. and all
> you other lurkers... Just the rum drinkers though.. I am not toasting with
> any of you Pepsi or Coke suckers..

Hey this is a public place. Don't call me a coke sucker. :)
>
> ... remind me about Native rights in the New Year..

OK, but where's John Wayne when we need him?
>
>
> ......Vegetarians eat vegetables-Beware of humanitarians
>
>
> -= Rasta =-
>
> Dancetime DJ Services
> Weddings - Banquets - Private Parties - Karaoke
> http://www.geocities.com/dancetimedjservices/
>
>

From:	Toni
Subject:	Re: -=Incredible Loss in Asia=-
Date:	Sun, 2 Jan 2005 17:17:07 -0500

"Paul" wrote in message
news:41D57F06.9010000@sympatico.ca...

> OK, but where's John Wayne when we need him?

6 ft under, pushing up daisies ... but at this moment I'm not and am still
spittin' nails.

Toni.

From:	Paul
Subject:	Re: -=Incredible Loss in Asia=-
Date:	Sun, 02 Jan 2005 23:48:18 -0500

Toni wrote:

> "Paul" wrote in message
> news:41D57F06.9010000@sympatico.ca...
>
>
>>OK, but where's John Wayne when we need him?
>
>
> 6 ft under, pushing up daisies ... but at this moment I'm not and am still
> spittin' nails.
>
> Toni.
>
>
Toni, take a couple of puffs on the old peace pipe and settle down. In
typical Navy fashion, you've shown up well after the battle is over.
Sam & Rasta already bayonetted the wounded. This thread lost its steam
and died a few days ago.

Paul

From:	Toni
Subject:	Re: -=Incredible Loss in Asia=-
Date:	Sun, 2 Jan 2005 17:05:17 -0500

"Paul" wrote in message
news:41D56630.50004@sympatico.ca...
> Dancetime DJ Services wrote:

It's nearly as bad as our own Canadian
> natives telling me I should make restitution for the supposed sins of my
> forefathers. Over my dead body. I may be in the minority, but I am
> entitled to my opinion, as callous, uninformed and right wing as you and
> young Sammy may perceive it.

Soap Boxes?? With this remark Paul, you just made me climb on mine! I'm
mad enough right now to spit nails, pinning you to the wall.

SUPPOSED !!! ??? NO "supposed" about it Paul, none whatsoever!!! The First
Nations are not "our own Canadian natives" either! They are the only True
Canadians. They are a people in their own right. The First People of this
land. Whites were the interlopers, the greedy, the 'my white skin is better
because it's white', people. Don't you dare insult The First Nations ever
again, in front of me, by calling them "our own Canadian natives".

I'd rather pay restitution to the First People, than to the Japanese living
in WWll BC, to name just one group looking for compo. Too bad you
couldn't/wouldn't read "In the Spirit of Crazy Horse", then you'd see
[perhaps ...?] why First Nations anywhere have 'dared' ask for anything from
the white man. Lest you think of the book as something to do with only
Chief Crazy Horse, think again! 'Tis a very enlightening book and gives
some disturbing peeks at the Canadian Judicial system, when it's dealing
with Native Canadians. It should be required reading in all schools in
North America!

DID you know that c1500 there were approximately 91 million Native people
living between the Arctic Ocean and the tip of South America? By 1900 there
were only about 15 million. C1848 California one tribe had approx 150,000,
but by 1859 only 1500 remained. By 1930? One lone survivor. Now there are
none. Has been awhile since I read "In the Spirit of Crazy Horse", so my
numbers / dates may be a little out, but they are very close ... the 91
million I clearly recall and the approx numbers for California. Believe me,
they are all shocking statistics. Did you know that it was ONLY in 1902,
that the province of Nova Scotia rescinded "the right" for whites to
actually hunt down and shoot, as they would deer or moose, First People? No
"supposed" about that, 'tis a horrible fact of our history.

There isn't a great deal written about the First People of Canada, but there
is one book which should also be required reading, particularly in Ontario
schools (and every single grade, year in and year out, in _ ALL _ Kenora
schools!!!). It is the story of what happened to The People of the original
Grassy Narrows Reserve and those survivors who ended up on what is NOW the
Grassy Narrows Reserve (1965), approx. 20 miles out of Kenora Ontario.
After reading it (it's more of a technical/statistical book, rather than an
actual narative), if you are not ashamed of being white, then you have
absolutely no heart nor conscience at all. [I don't own this book, but our
local library has it; I can never recall the actual title, but it is either
"A Love Greater Than Poison" or "A Poison Greater Than Love" > We here in NA
paid more attention to the mercury poisoning in Japan, than what occurred in
Ont.]

Most of us have heard of Geronimo (aka Goyathlay), Cochise (son-in- law of
Mangus), Victorio, Sitting Bull, Chief Joseph, Gall, Red Cloud, Manuelito,
Captain Jack, Tecumseh (has always been a hero, to me) .. and similar ...
but have you ever read their biographies? All written by whites, by the
way. I suggest you read some of their stories, especially Poundmaker's
(Alberta). And, we've all heard of Custer's Last Stand ... but do you truly
know ALL the events actually leading up to the battle at the Little Big
Horn? DO you truly know what had taken place prior to and leading up to
December 29th 1890 - the first Wounded Knee (second was in 1973)? What
about Sand Creek? Do you know what happened in 1871/72, when a band of
Aravaipa Apache, under Chief Eskiminzin, attempted to surrender to the US
Army?

Golly gee ... victories for the white man, usually against unarmed women,
the old, infirm and children. A massacre when Natives attacked whites.
Read the truth Paul ... so very often the Natives attack only in
retaliation. There was no honour in attacking women and children to The
People. Honour was everything to them, until we taught them otherwise! DO
you know what counting coupe meant?

DO you have any idea of how many tribes of North and South American Natives
have been completely wiped out, since the white man first stepped foot on
THEIR land? DO you know how much of the land whites SO GENEROUSLY (HA!!)
ceeded to the Keepers [white word would be 'owners'] is left, since the last
treaties were signed, if indeed they were signed at all? Very little and to
this day whites are still trying to take it away. Oka? Akwesasne? Ring
any bells?

If you read any of those books (and I can give you a long list of many
others, as well as actually lend you many of the books themselves, starting
with "The Trail of Tears" and "Through Indian Eyes"), maybe, __ just maybe
__ you will begin to understand why the First People of North and South
America have every right in this world to ask for compensation from whites.

Anyone reading this post, who is of the First Nations, I would urge you to
read "Yanta Ho" ("Clear The Way!") 'Tis a difficult book to read and over
1000 pages. Took 25 years to write (author Ruth Hill Bebee/Ruth Bebee Hill,
with the help of a Sioux - for the life of me, I cannot recall if he was a
Santee, Teton, Lakota ... ), translating approx 400 years of the clan's
history from The Bundles. Translated first into white man's English, then
back into the actual translation of an English if spoken literally by the
Sioux ... i.e. the word *beaver* translates to ... "he who swims with stick
in mouth" There is a bibliography of different flowers, animals and such,
in all three languages (Souix, English and the *Sioux English* as I refer to
it). Excellant book and although it is about the Sioux, it is a book I
think every Native North American should read. If after reading it,
you/they did not feel the most overpowing / overwhelming sense of pride at
being Native, [to my mind] you/they might as well not claim any Native blood
at all.

Several years ago I met a man (a Denee -sp?) who worked with Natives within
a local prison. I told him about the book and told him how I felt regarding
Natives reading it. I lent him "Yanta Ho", after he expressed interest in
it. I told him, "If you don't feel proud of your heritage, regadless that
it is not of the Souix Nation, return the book to me. I treasure the
messages and the feelings it gave to me and honestly do not want to give the
book away. If you think you're 10 ft tall after reading it, keep it for
your sons to read or use it in your prison work." Never heard anything for
about 6 months. Then I received a signed note (at work), .... "Ten feet
tall and still growing." Have never seen, nor heard from him again, but
have heard via friends who work in the same prison, positive comments about
'a book' being passed about among the Native population. I've been trying
ever since to obtain another copy of "Yanta Ho" and think I may have finally
found an outlet, up around New Liskeard / Cobalt Ontario.

I think most Natives would ONLY wish for RESPECT from all others, of
themselves as a People who did suffer at the hands of whites ... an
acknowledgement that our white history didn't/doesn't tell the truth.

[What colour is God?]

So to Paul ... and to others who don't think we owe the First People
anything at all .... I say ....

When you stand before God on Judgement Day, I hope He is wearing a headdress
of eagle feathers and wearing a loincloth.

.... taking a wee rest, I now step down from my soap box ...
Toni.

From:	Lee H.
Subject:	Re: -=Incredible Loss in Asia=-
Date:	Mon, 03 Jan 2005 02:59:32 GMT

My soapbox is low, in a sheltered corner, and seldom used.

All sorts of wrongs have been committed in the past, by both knowing and
unknowing people of all shapes, sizes, colours, and political and
religious persuasions.

Most of these people thought they were "right".
For the times they lived in, perhaps they were.

It's still happening in places.

That's a fact!

To paraphrase an old quote I'm sure we're all familiar with:
He who does not remember history is destined to re-live it!

I want to remember history. We all should!
Most of us don't want to re-live it.

But there is one important fact to keep in mind: You can't go back!

You can't undo what's been done!

Whatever wrongs my ancestors may have committed (and wherever they may
have committed them),

"I" didn't do it.

"I" don't need to apologize for it.

"I" sure as Hell will fight any movement to make me PAY for it

And......

Like it or not, there is a lot of truth in what Paul had to say.

--

Lee H., in beautiful Kamloops, British Columbia, Canada.

From:	Claire $Mason$ Blais
Subject:	Re: -=Incredible Loss in Asia=-
Date:	Mon, 03 Jan 2005 04:55:39 GMT

Sorry Lee - "I" didn't mean to come off as lecturing or blaming - Your quote
(he who does not remember history is destined to re-live it!) is so true and
in my work "I" see a lot of it - "I" feel strongly about this issue - not
because of what happened in the past (although it pains me)- or because "I"
want people to apologise or pay- but because of what "I" see happening
now - attitudes - language - barriers - mostly systemic - "I" have often
talked without thinking about what contributed to where a person (s) is/are
today - or have had expectations that there is a level playing field out
there - and that everyone has an equal oportunity - the reality is the
playing field is anything but level and all sorts of things contribute to
it's not being level - it's how life is - and "I'm" long past the time in
my life when "I" believe that life is fair- bad things happen to good
people - bad people get ahead (not always - and the good guys win often
enough to keep me hopeful) I'm sure you know what I mean - the hardships
that people suffer can often contribute to their being a better person - we
learn from them - but when too many bad things happen over too long a period
of time - we can also get beaten down by them, and one of the only ways "I"
know of changing systemic barriers is to talk about our true history, (cause
"I" sure don't want to see it repeated) it's not necessarily the one we
learned about in grade school - but then I'm old enough to remember learning
in grade school that a woman's place . . . . . . . . I'm sure I don't have
to repeat that here! Sorry if I offended!

Claire
"Lee H." wrote in message
news:svcht059vc7s88l9ni9clsebkn775gol2v@4ax.com...
> My soapbox is low, in a sheltered corner, and seldom used.
>
> All sorts of wrongs have been committed in the past, by both knowing and
> unknowing people of all shapes, sizes, colours, and political and
> religious persuasions.
>
> Most of these people thought they were "right".
> For the times they lived in, perhaps they were.
>
> It's still happening in places.
>
> That's a fact!
>
> To paraphrase an old quote I'm sure we're all familiar with:
> He who does not remember history is destined to re-live it!
>
> I want to remember history. We all should!
> Most of us don't want to re-live it.
>
> But there is one important fact to keep in mind: You can't go back!
>
> You can't undo what's been done!
>
> Whatever wrongs my ancestors may have committed (and wherever they may
> have committed them),
>
> "I" didn't do it.
>
> "I" don't need to apologize for it.
>
> "I" sure as Hell will fight any movement to make me PAY for it
>
> And......
>
> Like it or not, there is a lot of truth in what Paul had to say.
>
> --
>
> Lee H., in beautiful Kamloops, British Columbia, Canada.

From:	Lee H.
Subject:	Re: -=Incredible Loss in Asia=-
Date:	Mon, 03 Jan 2005 05:54:25 GMT

On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 04:55:39 GMT, "Claire $Mason$ Blais"
wrote:

>Sorry Lee - "I" didn't mean to come off as lecturing or blaming - Your quote
>(he who does not remember history is destined to re-live it!) is so true and
>in my work "I" see a lot of it - "I" feel strongly about this issue - not
>because of what happened in the past (although it pains me)- or because "I"
>want people to apologise or pay- but because of what "I" see happening
>now - attitudes - language - barriers - mostly systemic - "I" have often
>talked without thinking about what contributed to where a person (s) is/are
>today - or have had expectations that there is a level playing field out
>there - and that everyone has an equal oportunity - the reality is the
>playing field is anything but level and all sorts of things contribute to
>it's not being level - it's how life is - and "I'm" long past the time in
>my life when "I" believe that life is fair- bad things happen to good
>people - bad people get ahead (not always - and the good guys win often
>enough to keep me hopeful) I'm sure you know what I mean - the hardships
>that people suffer can often contribute to their being a better person - we
>learn from them - but when too many bad things happen over too long a period
>of time - we can also get beaten down by them, and one of the only ways "I"
>know of changing systemic barriers is to talk about our true history, (cause
>"I" sure don't want to see it repeated) it's not necessarily the one we
>learned about in grade school - but then I'm old enough to remember learning
>in grade school that a woman's place . . . . . . . . I'm sure I don't have
>to repeat that here! Sorry if I offended!
>
>Claire

The only thing that offends me is watching how all the hashing and
rehashing of "who did what to whom and when" is holding up progress and
the evolution of society. As I said, you can't go back and undo stuff.
You can't make things "fair" long after the fact, especially on the
backs of people who had nothing to do with the original deeds.

Don't by any means forget! Just learn the lessons of the past and don't
repeat the same mistakes.

All cultures have something to offer the future and that's what we
should be striving for. The past is over and done with. You can't
change it. Don't dwell on it! Don't forget it! Learn from it! Grow!

You can't go back, and anyone who tries is just slowing down those who
are trying to go forward.

Now hopefully returning to lurking mode. :)

--

Lee H., in beautiful Kamloops, British Columbia, Canada.

From:	Paul
Subject:	Re: -=Incredible Loss in Asia=-
Date:	Sun, 02 Jan 2005 23:43:46 -0500

Toni wrote:
> "Paul" wrote in message
> news:41D56630.50004@sympatico.ca...
>
>>Dancetime DJ Services wrote:
>
>
> It's nearly as bad as our own Canadian
>
>>natives telling me I should make restitution for the supposed sins of my
>>forefathers. Over my dead body. I may be in the minority, but I am
>>entitled to my opinion, as callous, uninformed and right wing as you and
>>young Sammy may perceive it.
>
>
> Soap Boxes?? With this remark Paul, you just made me climb on mine! I'm
> mad enough right now to spit nails, pinning you to the wall.
>
> SUPPOSED !!! ??? NO "supposed" about it Paul, none whatsoever!!! The First
> Nations are not "our own Canadian natives" either! They are the only True
> Canadians. They are a people in their own right. The First People of this
> land. Whites were the interlopers, the greedy, the 'my white skin is better
> because it's white', people. Don't you dare insult The First Nations ever
> again, in front of me, by calling them "our own Canadian natives".
>
> I'd rather pay restitution to the First People, than to the Japanese living
> in WWll BC, to name just one group looking for compo. Too bad you
> couldn't/wouldn't read "In the Spirit of Crazy Horse", then you'd see
> [perhaps ...?] why First Nations anywhere have 'dared' ask for anything from
> the white man. Lest you think of the book as something to do with only
> Chief Crazy Horse, think again! 'Tis a very enlightening book and gives
> some disturbing peeks at the Canadian Judicial system, when it's dealing
> with Native Canadians. It should be required reading in all schools in
> North America!
>
> DID you know that c1500 there were approximately 91 million Native people
> living between the Arctic Ocean and the tip of South America? By 1900 there
> were only about 15 million. C1848 California one tribe had approx 150,000,
> but by 1859 only 1500 remained. By 1930? One lone survivor. Now there are
> none. Has been awhile since I read "In the Spirit of Crazy Horse", so my
> numbers / dates may be a little out, but they are very close ... the 91
> million I clearly recall and the approx numbers for California. Believe me,
> they are all shocking statistics. Did you know that it was ONLY in 1902,
> that the province of Nova Scotia rescinded "the right" for whites to
> actually hunt down and shoot, as they would deer or moose, First People? No
> "supposed" about that, 'tis a horrible fact of our history.
>
> There isn't a great deal written about the First People of Canada, but there
> is one book which should also be required reading, particularly in Ontario
> schools (and every single grade, year in and year out, in _ ALL _ Kenora
> schools!!!). It is the story of what happened to The People of the original
> Grassy Narrows Reserve and those survivors who ended up on what is NOW the
> Grassy Narrows Reserve (1965), approx. 20 miles out of Kenora Ontario.
> After reading it (it's more of a technical/statistical book, rather than an
> actual narative), if you are not ashamed of being white, then you have
> absolutely no heart nor conscience at all. [I don't own this book, but our
> local library has it; I can never recall the actual title, but it is either
> "A Love Greater Than Poison" or "A Poison Greater Than Love" > We here in NA
> paid more attention to the mercury poisoning in Japan, than what occurred in
> Ont.]
>
> Most of us have heard of Geronimo (aka Goyathlay), Cochise (son-in- law of
> Mangus), Victorio, Sitting Bull, Chief Joseph, Gall, Red Cloud, Manuelito,
> Captain Jack, Tecumseh (has always been a hero, to me) .. and similar ...
> but have you ever read their biographies? All written by whites, by the
> way. I suggest you read some of their stories, especially Poundmaker's
> (Alberta). And, we've all heard of Custer's Last Stand ... but do you truly
> know ALL the events actually leading up to the battle at the Little Big
> Horn? DO you truly know what had taken place prior to and leading up to
> December 29th 1890 - the first Wounded Knee (second was in 1973)? What
> about Sand Creek? Do you know what happened in 1871/72, when a band of
> Aravaipa Apache, under Chief Eskiminzin, attempted to surrender to the US
> Army?
>
> Golly gee ... victories for the white man, usually against unarmed women,
> the old, infirm and children. A massacre when Natives attacked whites.
> Read the truth Paul ... so very often the Natives attack only in
> retaliation. There was no honour in attacking women and children to The
> People. Honour was everything to them, until we taught them otherwise! DO
> you know what counting coupe meant?
>
> DO you have any idea of how many tribes of North and South American Natives
> have been completely wiped out, since the white man first stepped foot on
> THEIR land? DO you know how much of the land whites SO GENEROUSLY (HA!!)
> ceeded to the Keepers [white word would be 'owners'] is left, since the last
> treaties were signed, if indeed they were signed at all? Very little and to
> this day whites are still trying to take it away. Oka? Akwesasne? Ring
> any bells?
>
> If you read any of those books (and I can give you a long list of many
> others, as well as actually lend you many of the books themselves, starting
> with "The Trail of Tears" and "Through Indian Eyes"), maybe, __ just maybe
> __ you will begin to understand why the First People of North and South
> America have every right in this world to ask for compensation from whites.
>
> Anyone reading this post, who is of the First Nations, I would urge you to
> read "Yanta Ho" ("Clear The Way!") 'Tis a difficult book to read and over
> 1000 pages. Took 25 years to write (author Ruth Hill Bebee/Ruth Bebee Hill,
> with the help of a Sioux - for the life of me, I cannot recall if he was a
> Santee, Teton, Lakota ... ), translating approx 400 years of the clan's
> history from The Bundles. Translated first into white man's English, then
> back into the actual translation of an English if spoken literally by the
> Sioux ... i.e. the word *beaver* translates to ... "he who swims with stick
> in mouth" There is a bibliography of different flowers, animals and such,
> in all three languages (Souix, English and the *Sioux English* as I refer to
> it). Excellant book and although it is about the Sioux, it is a book I
> think every Native North American should read. If after reading it,
> you/they did not feel the most overpowing / overwhelming sense of pride at
> being Native, [to my mind] you/they might as well not claim any Native blood
> at all.
>
> Several years ago I met a man (a Denee -sp?) who worked with Natives within
> a local prison. I told him about the book and told him how I felt regarding
> Natives reading it. I lent him "Yanta Ho", after he expressed interest in
> it. I told him, "If you don't feel proud of your heritage, regadless that
> it is not of the Souix Nation, return the book to me. I treasure the
> messages and the feelings it gave to me and honestly do not want to give the
> book away. If you think you're 10 ft tall after reading it, keep it for
> your sons to read or use it in your prison work." Never heard anything for
> about 6 months. Then I received a signed note (at work), .... "Ten feet
> tall and still growing." Have never seen, nor heard from him again, but
> have heard via friends who work in the same prison, positive comments about
> 'a book' being passed about among the Native population. I've been trying
> ever since to obtain another copy of "Yanta Ho" and think I may have finally
> found an outlet, up around New Liskeard / Cobalt Ontario.
>
> I think most Natives would ONLY wish for RESPECT from all others, of
> themselves as a People who did suffer at the hands of whites ... an
> acknowledgement that our white history didn't/doesn't tell the truth.
>
> [What colour is God?]
>
> So to Paul ... and to others who don't think we owe the First People
> anything at all .... I say ....
>
> When you stand before God on Judgement Day, I hope He is wearing a headdress
> of eagle feathers and wearing a loincloth.
>
> ... taking a wee rest, I now step down from my soap box ...
> Toni.
>
>
Toni, I'm afraid you have me confused with someone who gives a shit!!!
By all means, please continue to bear my share of the burden of the
white man's guilt....you seem to be doing such a good job of it.

Paul

From:	Claire $Mason$ Blais
Subject:	Re: -=Incredible Loss in Asia=-
Date:	Mon, 03 Jan 2005 02:27:16 GMT

Toni;

Right on Girl - you go!!!
How about the fact that when they tried to take the government to Court - we
took away their right to go to Court (they were wards of the government- and
therefore not allowed to represent themselves in Court or hire an
attorney) - and what about the First Nations guys who had to give up their
status in order to be allowed to serve in the military and then when the
veterans came back - were treated differently than other vetrans and got a
substancially lower pension and lessor medical benefits - and guess where
South Africa got their apartheid system from - it was modeled after how the
Canadian Government treated First Nations persons here - for example they
were not allowed to leave their reserves without a ticket - I'm sure some of
you are old enough to have heard of a "red ticket indian" On top of which
they were prohibited from attending institutions of higher learning -
colleges and universities - and we all know what a good education they got
and how well they were treated in residential schools - and this is not
ancient history - when I began my career as a social worker - there was
still a residential school in operation (1979) on the west coast and I don't
think it closed down until the mid 1980's.

claire

"Toni" wrote in message
news:M9_Bd.14746$Y_4.1336342@read2.cgocable.net...
>
> "Paul" wrote in message
> news:41D56630.50004@sympatico.ca...
> > Dancetime DJ Services wrote:
>
> It's nearly as bad as our own Canadian
> > natives telling me I should make restitution for the supposed sins of my
> > forefathers. Over my dead body. I may be in the minority, but I am
> > entitled to my opinion, as callous, uninformed and right wing as you and
> > young Sammy may perceive it.
>
> Soap Boxes?? With this remark Paul, you just made me climb on mine! I'm
> mad enough right now to spit nails, pinning you to the wall.
>
> SUPPOSED !!! ??? NO "supposed" about it Paul, none whatsoever!!! The
First
> Nations are not "our own Canadian natives" either! They are the only True
> Canadians. They are a people in their own right. The First People of
this
> land. Whites were the interlopers, the greedy, the 'my white skin is
better
> because it's white', people. Don't you dare insult The First Nations ever
> again, in front of me, by calling them "our own Canadian natives".
>
> I'd rather pay restitution to the First People, than to the Japanese
living
> in WWll BC, to name just one group looking for compo. Too bad you
> couldn't/wouldn't read "In the Spirit of Crazy Horse", then you'd see
> [perhaps ...?] why First Nations anywhere have 'dared' ask for anything
from
> the white man. Lest you think of the book as something to do with only
> Chief Crazy Horse, think again! 'Tis a very enlightening book and gives
> some disturbing peeks at the Canadian Judicial system, when it's dealing
> with Native Canadians. It should be required reading in all schools in
> North America!
>
> DID you know that c1500 there were approximately 91 million Native people
> living between the Arctic Ocean and the tip of South America? By 1900
there
> were only about 15 million. C1848 California one tribe had approx
150,000,
> but by 1859 only 1500 remained. By 1930? One lone survivor. Now there
are
> none. Has been awhile since I read "In the Spirit of Crazy Horse", so my
> numbers / dates may be a little out, but they are very close ... the 91
> million I clearly recall and the approx numbers for California. Believe
me,
> they are all shocking statistics. Did you know that it was ONLY in 1902,
> that the province of Nova Scotia rescinded "the right" for whites to
> actually hunt down and shoot, as they would deer or moose, First People?
No
> "supposed" about that, 'tis a horrible fact of our history.
>
> There isn't a great deal written about the First People of Canada, but
there
> is one book which should also be required reading, particularly in Ontario
> schools (and every single grade, year in and year out, in _ ALL _ Kenora
> schools!!!). It is the story of what happened to The People of the
original
> Grassy Narrows Reserve and those survivors who ended up on what is NOW the
> Grassy Narrows Reserve (1965), approx. 20 miles out of Kenora Ontario.
> After reading it (it's more of a technical/statistical book, rather than
an
> actual narative), if you are not ashamed of being white, then you have
> absolutely no heart nor conscience at all. [I don't own this book, but
our
> local library has it; I can never recall the actual title, but it is
either
> "A Love Greater Than Poison" or "A Poison Greater Than Love" > We here in
NA
> paid more attention to the mercury poisoning in Japan, than what occurred
in
> Ont.]
>
> Most of us have heard of Geronimo (aka Goyathlay), Cochise (son-in- law of
> Mangus), Victorio, Sitting Bull, Chief Joseph, Gall, Red Cloud, Manuelito,
> Captain Jack, Tecumseh (has always been a hero, to me) .. and similar ...
> but have you ever read their biographies? All written by whites, by the
> way. I suggest you read some of their stories, especially Poundmaker's
> (Alberta). And, we've all heard of Custer's Last Stand ... but do you
truly
> know ALL the events actually leading up to the battle at the Little Big
> Horn? DO you truly know what had taken place prior to and leading up to
> December 29th 1890 - the first Wounded Knee (second was in 1973)? What
> about Sand Creek? Do you know what happened in 1871/72, when a band of
> Aravaipa Apache, under Chief Eskiminzin, attempted to surrender to the US
> Army?
>
> Golly gee ... victories for the white man, usually against unarmed women,
> the old, infirm and children. A massacre when Natives attacked whites.
> Read the truth Paul ... so very often the Natives attack only in
> retaliation. There was no honour in attacking women and children to The
> People. Honour was everything to them, until we taught them otherwise!
DO
> you know what counting coupe meant?
>
> DO you have any idea of how many tribes of North and South American
Natives
> have been completely wiped out, since the white man first stepped foot on
> THEIR land? DO you know how much of the land whites SO GENEROUSLY (HA!!)
> ceeded to the Keepers [white word would be 'owners'] is left, since the
last
> treaties were signed, if indeed they were signed at all? Very little and
to
> this day whites are still trying to take it away. Oka? Akwesasne? Ring
> any bells?
>
> If you read any of those books (and I can give you a long list of many
> others, as well as actually lend you many of the books themselves,
starting
> with "The Trail of Tears" and "Through Indian Eyes"), maybe, __ just
maybe
> __ you will begin to understand why the First People of North and South
> America have every right in this world to ask for compensation from
whites.
>
> Anyone reading this post, who is of the First Nations, I would urge you to
> read "Yanta Ho" ("Clear The Way!") 'Tis a difficult book to read and
over
> 1000 pages. Took 25 years to write (author Ruth Hill Bebee/Ruth Bebee
Hill,
> with the help of a Sioux - for the life of me, I cannot recall if he was a
> Santee, Teton, Lakota ... ), translating approx 400 years of the clan's
> history from The Bundles. Translated first into white man's English, then
> back into the actual translation of an English if spoken literally by the
> Sioux ... i.e. the word *beaver* translates to ... "he who swims with
stick
> in mouth" There is a bibliography of different flowers, animals and such,
> in all three languages (Souix, English and the *Sioux English* as I refer
to
> it). Excellant book and although it is about the Sioux, it is a book I
> think every Native North American should read. If after reading it,
> you/they did not feel the most overpowing / overwhelming sense of pride at
> being Native, [to my mind] you/they might as well not claim any Native
blood
> at all.
>
> Several years ago I met a man (a Denee -sp?) who worked with Natives
within
> a local prison. I told him about the book and told him how I felt
regarding
> Natives reading it. I lent him "Yanta Ho", after he expressed interest in
> it. I told him, "If you don't feel proud of your heritage, regadless that
> it is not of the Souix Nation, return the book to me. I treasure the
> messages and the feelings it gave to me and honestly do not want to give
the
> book away. If you think you're 10 ft tall after reading it, keep it for
> your sons to read or use it in your prison work." Never heard anything
for
> about 6 months. Then I received a signed note (at work), .... "Ten feet
> tall and still growing." Have never seen, nor heard from him again, but
> have heard via friends who work in the same prison, positive comments
about
> 'a book' being passed about among the Native population. I've been trying
> ever since to obtain another copy of "Yanta Ho" and think I may have
finally
> found an outlet, up around New Liskeard / Cobalt Ontario.
>
> I think most Natives would ONLY wish for RESPECT from all others, of
> themselves as a People who did suffer at the hands of whites ... an
> acknowledgement that our white history didn't/doesn't tell the truth.
>
> [What colour is God?]
>
> So to Paul ... and to others who don't think we owe the First People
> anything at all .... I say ....
>
> When you stand before God on Judgement Day, I hope He is wearing a
headdress
> of eagle feathers and wearing a loincloth.
>
> ... taking a wee rest, I now step down from my soap box ...
> Toni.
>
>

From:	Bruce Ricketts
Subject:	Re: -=Incredible Loss in Asia=-
Date:	Wed, 29 Dec 2004 14:09:06 -0500

I hate to agree with Paul but I concur - to a degree.

I agree that we should send support. But how much is enough and to
whom is it sent.

The local Ottawa media through its most radical radio station led a
smear campaign on the Federal Government yesterday. They demanded
that the PM cut his vacation short and fly to the affected region.
Too see whom? To see what? To visit which one or two of the affected
countrie? Or does he visit all 11 countries including Myramar? (And
while we are at it, should he fly a scheduled airline?) Does anyone
seriously think that the PM is not watching TV or hearing from
External Affairs on an hourly basis or more?

In a disaster like this, we have our local diplomats and embassy staff
in the region to advise us on the needs of the region. Is $4 million
enough to help? Is $44 or $444 million going to help? Or do they need
medical staff, antibiotics and water purification tablets? Let's find
out before we send in 1000 tons of wheat or 50,000 blankets.

I disagree with Paul on one coments. While there were 20,000 people
killed there are over 1,000,000 left homeless. They need help, but
what kind?

On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 08:15:02 -0500, Paul wrote:

>Dancetime DJ Services wrote:
>> I didn't see anyone mention this yet, so I might as well start the thread.
>> This is a terrible disaster of unimaginable grief and surprize.
>>
>
>> If you have it, if you think you can do without it, to help reduce the
>> continued suffering, and further loss, I would implore you to try, ....
>>
>> At least the last time, God warned us well in advance, unfortunately, only
>> Noah listened...
>>
>>
>> -= Rasta =-
>>
>> Dancetime DJ Services
>> Weddings - Banquets - Private Parties - Karaoke
>> http://www.geocities.com/dancetimedjservices/
>>
>>
>Rasta, I'm afraid I just don't buy into any of this "we must act now and
>send all our money to Asia" melodrama. I agree the human loss is
>shocking, but really, it is hard for me to feel sorry for those who
>won't help themselves, or who refuse aid when it is offered. For
>example, the Sri Lankans have already turned down an Israeli offer of
>assistance, because they didn't like the perceived "military
>composition" of the 150-man relief force that was ready to fly to the
>stricken zone. Speaking of Sri Lanka, I loved this response I read on
>the Net: They got a 1.5 hour lead time phone call of the impending tidal
>wave. The Sri Lankan answer was "well who do you want me to call, the
>Tamils"? Instead she sat on the call and watched the carnage that followed.
>
>Also Rasta, these countries were told 12 years ago to get an early
>warning system set up. The Pacific ocean had one. The cost was minimal,
>about $1.5 million. The World Health Organization and World Bank were
>just 2 organizations that urged preventative maintenance as a cure for
>disasters such as this. These countries are not poor either. Life is too
>idyllic and they would carry on. Well, they are carrying on now.
>
>Rasta, this is a coastal problem. A mile inshore there is no
>devastation, just business as usual. Countries like India go through
>this twice a year during monsoon season. This is a cake walk for them.
>The same with Malaysia. I watched tv coverage too. I saw the million
>dollar homes on the Sri Lankan coast that were devestated. Really, set
>aside the deaths and I have to wonder what the problems really are
>like. Walk a mile inshore to safety and dry land. These people cannot
>get drinking water and food? Baloney!! The tourist industry is what got
>hit. Not countries. Just water front.
>
>My point Rasta, is that these countries are not 3rd world. India is
>highly industrialized and is on a par with China. Malaysia is wealthy
>also. Sri Lanka has had a civil war raging for 20 years but their loss
>was just a stretch of beach about 14 miles long. I do not minimize the
>loss of life but it was instant and is now over. If these people need
>water they can walk a mile inland. This is way overblown by our media.
>The agencies are using this as a means to raise money. They are not
>needed over there.

From:	Dancetime DJ Services
Subject:	Re: -=Incredible Loss in Asia=-
Date:	Thu, 30 Dec 2004 11:07:24 GMT

> I agree that we should send support. But how much is enough and to
> whom is it sent.

Exactly Bruce... the same people that have all the answers to the world's
affairs usually work in Barber shops, not in Radio Stations. Cabbies are
pretty good at it too, I'd like to suggest bartenders, but they are just
better listeners..

> The local Ottawa media through its most radical radio station led a
> smear campaign on the Federal Government yesterday. They demanded
> that the PM cut his vacation short and fly to the affected region.
> Too see whom? To see what? To visit which one or two of the affected
> countrie? Or does he visit all 11 countries including Myramar? (And
> while we are at it, should he fly a scheduled airline?) Does anyone
> seriously think that the PM is not watching TV or hearing from
> External Affairs on an hourly basis or more?

Yea, think about this. Let's take our Head of State, fly him into a disease
infested region, wasting tax dollars and not even getting in a golf game.
Send the money it would take to fuel his aircraft, it would be better used.

Ever know anyone that benifited from United Way? I don't. I have done DJ
work to promote their kickoffs, year after year, FREE, and sometimes, under
fear that I might never return again, they actually came over and said
"Thanks". I have never heard of one person that I knew, that benifited from
the millions of contributions they receive. I hate the little buggers with
chocolate bars outside the liquor store, raising money for another
generation of sport freaks. I wanted to support Child Find, and I put some
money in last year, but I found the guy too hostile this year, and filled
the Salvation Army kettles instead. Non-intrusive, they are like the Maytag
man, just standing there in the lobby, holding doors for people carrying
cases of beer out.. Brilliant.. And I have seen the Salvation Army at their
best, helping the homeless, feeding the hungry, regardless of their views
and beliefs. A superior charity in my mind.. but what is the right
organization to spread relief to Asia? the Government? Yeah right, didn't we
give them all our money already. Do they know how to evenly spread out the
money? (Ask a Newfie), What about the other Charities... how much do we know
about them. They won't be like Greenpeace, will they? Standing at your door
with sad stories about baby seals, while blocking the waterways to Europe
with their idealistic views..

Where does the Canadian Public stand on asking the PM to send support?
Should we send troops? Where would we get them. Them damned Canadians let
the military dwindle so small, we would have to rob troops from 4
peacekeeping missions to carry the water to Asia. We would have to pay
Liberia to send a tanker to take the mobile hospitals and troops. We can't
send any troops. Our early warning sirens failed to go off, and now when we
need troops, we are unprepared. We would send a ship/sub/big angry pit bull,
but we don't have them.. Money.. where did we get all this money? Where was
it when we were hit with a Hurricane in Nova Scotia... Where do we send
money? Well, we send it to the country with the most influence/affluence
when they recover. We can smuggly stand back and say.. WE DID THAT! but we
ignore the others. I agree on one major point. There is no sense sending
anything in a hurry. There are already things being sent, people ready or
being deployed. The DART team was ready to go when on Sunday morning. You
just don't fly people into other countries without the invitation. There was
no communication on Sunday with some affected areas. Where to send, how many
to send, they didn't have a clue how many deaths there were at that time.
So, nothing will be asked for, until it is too late. Having a big pool of
money waiting, would be the fastest way to respond, when it is asked for.
Troops, hospitals.. get real. WE don't have enough for our day to day
needs.. we are NOT PREPARED for any emergency of our own, let alone in
another country 24 hours away.

And yes Bruce. We can't help the dead. Just the living. While we can surely
help the homeless, I wish we did it at home too.

--
-= Rasta =-

Dancetime DJ Services
Weddings - Banquets - Private Parties - Karaoke
http://www.geocities.com/dancetimedjservices/

From:	Sam
Subject:	Re: -=Incredible Loss in Asia=-
Date:	Wed, 29 Dec 2004 22:33:15 -0500

"Paul" wrote in message
news:41D2ADD6.2040607@sympatico.ca...

> Rasta, I'm afraid I just don't buy into any of this "we must act now and
> send all our money to Asia" melodrama. I agree the human loss is
> shocking, but really, it is hard for me to feel sorry for those who won't
> help themselves, or who refuse aid when it is offered. For example, the
> Sri Lankans have already turned down an Israeli offer of assistance,
> because they didn't like the perceived "military composition" of the
> 150-man relief force that was ready to fly to the stricken zone. Speaking
> of Sri Lanka, I loved this response I read on the Net: They got a 1.5 hour
> lead time phone call of the impending tidal wave. The Sri Lankan answer
> was "well who do you want me to call, the Tamils"? Instead she sat on the
> call and watched the carnage that followed.
>
> Also Rasta, these countries were told 12 years ago to get an early warning
> system set up. The Pacific ocean had one. The cost was minimal, about $1.5
> million. The World Health Organization and World Bank were just 2
> organizations that urged preventative maintenance as a cure for disasters
> such as this. These countries are not poor either. Life is too idyllic and
> they would carry on. Well, they are carrying on now.
>
> Rasta, this is a coastal problem. A mile inshore there is no devastation,
> just business as usual. Countries like India go through this twice a year
> during monsoon season. This is a cake walk for them. The same with
> Malaysia. I watched tv coverage too. I saw the million dollar homes on the
> Sri Lankan coast that were devestated. Really, set aside the deaths and I
> have to wonder what the problems really are like. Walk a mile inshore to
> safety and dry land. These people cannot get drinking water and food?
> Baloney!! The tourist industry is what got hit. Not countries. Just
> water front.
>
> My point Rasta, is that these countries are not 3rd world. India is highly
> industrialized and is on a par with China. Malaysia is wealthy also. Sri
> Lanka has had a civil war raging for 20 years but their loss was just a
> stretch of beach about 14 miles long. I do not minimize the loss of life
> but it was instant and is now over. If these people need water they can
> walk a mile inland. This is way overblown by our media. The agencies are
> using this as a means to raise money. They are not needed over there.

Paul,

I am overcome by the naivety and callousness of your post. This is a human
disaster of precedented proportions in our lifetimes and you would suggest
that the victims of this disaster simply get up and "[w]alk a mile inshore
to safety and dry land" and that countries like India "go through this twice
a year during monsoon season."

Even if one were to ignore the massive challenge of trying to find and bury
the tens of thousands of dead - over 45,000 in Indonesia alone -and discount
the problem of trying to find the thousands upon thousands of missing and
forget about trying to reunite family members who have been separated, there
remains the challenge of caring for the over 500,000 who were injured and
the hundreds of thousands who were left without anything. As time passes,
many of these people will likely fall victim to waterborne diseases like
cholera (without treatment, and plenty of clean water, death from cholera
can occur in hours), especially those already weakened by this disaster. A
high percentage of the victims are children, many of whom are now orphans.
Do you really believe that we owe these people nothing?

I also find it interesting to note that you characterize countries like
India and Malaysia as "rich" and industrialized while also castigating
countries like Sri Lanka for failing to warn its citizens when the bulk of
the victims come from Indonesia, poor by any standard, which was hit with
virtually no warning. It also seems hypocritical to me to hear the resident
of one of the riches nations on Earth try to rationalize why we need not be
concerned. Do you really believe that a country like Indonesia has the
resources to deal with mass casualties on this scale? Do you think that any
country does? I can tell you that Canada could not handle 30,000 casualties
without foreign help and we are one of the richest countries in the world.
Paul, basic humanity implores us to action.

I was going to say that I would be interested in your perspective as to the
ongoing human disasters in Africa but I realized that my faith in humanity
doesn't need another kick right now.

I know that I have wasted my time in responding to you so I won't bother
debating the other specious and dubious arguments that you present. I hope
that I never meet you Paul and I especially hope that you never need any
help from your fellow man because, frankly, I don't think you deserve it.

Rasta - sir, you have my respect.

Sam

From:	Dancetime DJ Services
Subject:	Re: -=Incredible Loss in Asia=-
Date:	Thu, 30 Dec 2004 10:03:02 GMT

> I know that I have wasted my time in responding to you so I won't bother
> debating the other specious and dubious arguments that you present. I hope
> that I never meet you Paul and I especially hope that you never need any
> help from your fellow man because, frankly, I don't think you deserve it.
>
> Rasta - sir, you have my respect.
>
> Sam

Hey Sam;

If nothing else, this will stimulate some newsgroup banter. Although I
would like to agree with you that Paul is very callous (The reason I took
him off my Christmas Card List), I am sure that much of what we interpret in
his comments are not exactly what he wished to say. Many things I have
stated in the past, and been misunderstood, and while you are thinking one
thing, you are typing another. We have the ablility to have differing
opinions, and still agree on some points. Even though Paul wasn't really on
my Christmas Card List (tell them Susan.. there is no Christmas Card List),
I don't find his comments that unusual.

We have become an apathetic society, numbed by years of daily
conversations of thousands dead, then flip the channel to the movie channel,
unaffected. We name the dead in Thousands, not in the 10125 dead amounts. We
see it as a large impersonal loss, not the faces of those who are weaping.
Many people who hate American Policy, might just as well have stated after
911 that "Those arrogant Americans just got what they deserve". But, the
USA is closer to home. A country w-a-y-o-v-e-r-t-h-e-r-e doesn't contain the
faces we know. Most of the tourists were from other Countries.. No one I
knew....

I remember stating (probably here in the newsgroup) that I never like
reading the news. First, why read a newspaper before you go to work, with
headlines reading "THOUSANDS FEARED DEAD" "3rd MURDER OF THE MONTH" etc..
What a depressing way to start your day. But people read the morning paper
over coffee, and it doesn't even fizz them. We are no longer shocked, we
lost compassion back when John Lennon was shot, we are all becoming like
Paul. He just got there first. And don't think (correct or not) that he
doesn't believe some of what he stated. If it were true (or accurate), I
might agree with him. Normally, I would have preferred not to
watch/listen/read the news and ruin my vacation thinking about world
disasters. But, now that I know, it bothers me, because I am human (dammit,
there, I said it), and human nature is compassionate, but evolving away all
the time.

Well, Paul forced you out into the newsgroup responses.. He can't be all
bad... Don't be too hard on him. I have said before, that outspoken people
often say what everyone else wants to, but they appear OK by their silence.
He and I, are not the silent type.

Oh, two minutes til news time..

......A cure for apathy? Why bother?.....

-= Rasta =-

Dancetime DJ Services
Weddings - Banquets - Private Parties - Karaoke
http://www.geocities.com/dancetimedjservices/

From:	Paul
Subject:	Re: -=Incredible Loss in Asia=-
Date:	Fri, 31 Dec 2004 00:31:31 -0500

Dancetime DJ Services wrote:

>
> Hey Sam;
>
> If nothing else, this will stimulate some newsgroup banter. Although I
> would like to agree with you that Paul is very callous (The reason I took
> him off my Christmas Card List), I am sure that much of what we interpret in
> his comments are not exactly what he wished to say. Many things I have
> stated in the past, and been misunderstood, and while you are thinking one
> thing, you are typing another. We have the ablility to have differing
> opinions, and still agree on some points. Even though Paul wasn't really on
> my Christmas Card List (tell them Susan.. there is no Christmas Card List),
> I don't find his comments that unusual.
>
> We have become an apathetic society, numbed by years of daily
> conversations of thousands dead, then flip the channel to the movie channel,
> unaffected. We name the dead in Thousands, not in the 10125 dead amounts. We
> see it as a large impersonal loss, not the faces of those who are weaping.
> Many people who hate American Policy, might just as well have stated after
> 911 that "Those arrogant Americans just got what they deserve". But, the
> USA is closer to home. A country w-a-y-o-v-e-r-t-h-e-r-e doesn't contain the
> faces we know. Most of the tourists were from other Countries.. No one I
> knew....
>
> I remember stating (probably here in the newsgroup) that I never like
> reading the news. First, why read a newspaper before you go to work, with
> headlines reading "THOUSANDS FEARED DEAD" "3rd MURDER OF THE MONTH" etc..
> What a depressing way to start your day. But people read the morning paper
> over coffee, and it doesn't even fizz them. We are no longer shocked, we
> lost compassion back when John Lennon was shot, we are all becoming like
> Paul. He just got there first. And don't think (correct or not) that he
> doesn't believe some of what he stated. If it were true (or accurate), I
> might agree with him. Normally, I would have preferred not to
> watch/listen/read the news and ruin my vacation thinking about world
> disasters. But, now that I know, it bothers me, because I am human (dammit,
> there, I said it), and human nature is compassionate, but evolving away all
> the time.
>
> Well, Paul forced you out into the newsgroup responses.. He can't be all
> bad... Don't be too hard on him. I have said before, that outspoken people
> often say what everyone else wants to, but they appear OK by their silence.
> He and I, are not the silent type.
>
> Oh, two minutes til news time..
>
>
> .....A cure for apathy? Why bother?.....
>
> -= Rasta =-
>

And here I was willing to believe that you either dropped my Christmas
card in the snow or it got lost in the mail!!!

I didn't force Sammy out into the NG, he chose to come out. It's fun to
troll for finless browns in the shallow end of the swamp. But hey, I
appreciate being mentioned in the same sentence as John Lennon. :)

Happy New Year Rasta and take it easy on Susan when you get back to
Ottawa. She tells me everything, you know!!!

Paul

From:	Dancetime DJ Services
Subject:	Re: -=Incredible Loss in Asia=-
Date:	Fri, 31 Dec 2004 08:48:29 GMT

> And here I was willing to believe that you either dropped my Christmas
> card in the snow or it got lost in the mail!!!
>
Its a music CD, and I didn't drop it in the Snow.. I just gave them all out
before I had a chance to chuck feces at you...

> I didn't force Sammy out into the NG, he chose to come out. It's fun to
> troll for finless browns in the shallow end of the swamp. But hey, I
> appreciate being mentioned in the same sentence as John Lennon. :)

Well, NO, no one is forced into the group.. They just come crawling in,
looking for opportunities to repair the years of *silent time*
>
> Happy New Year Rasta and take it easy on Susan when you get back to
> Ottawa. She tells me everything, you know

Happy New Year to you too Paulie.... Take it easy on Suzy? Sure, Sure.. She
remembers everything.. My mercenary buddy is watching her kneecaps as we
speak.... Its not like you were singing Eminem songs, then pretending to be
*normal*

.... Just think, in a few million years Barney will be motor oil.

--
-= Rasta =-

Dancetime DJ Services
Weddings - Banquets - Private Parties - Karaoke
http://www.geocities.com/dancetimedjservices/

From:	Susan
Subject:	Re: -=Incredible Loss in Asia=-
Date:	Fri, 31 Dec 2004 08:31:12 -0500

Dancetime DJ Services wrote:

> > Happy New Year Rasta and take it easy on Susan when you get back to
> > Ottawa. She tells me everything, you know
>
> Happy New Year to you too Paulie.... Take it easy on Suzy? Sure, Sure.. She
> remembers everything.. My mercenary buddy is watching her kneecaps as we
> speak.... Its not like you were singing Eminem songs, then pretending to be
> *normal*

Yes, Rasta, I remember everything... and I don't tell Paul all I know -
I can be selective when I want. Be nice , or I'll remember the bad
things, too.

Too bad you're not here this week, O'Brien's is having a murder mystery
for New Year's Eve, combined with karaoke.

Susan

From:	Dancetime DJ Services
Subject:	NewYearsEve<